A new R66 or a used EC120?

[cherminator]

The stats on these two machines appear to be very similar. I'm looking for opinions on which one would be better for private use as a friend of mine is looking at one of them for a possible purchase.

 

I know the 120 is bigger, roomier, has more cargo space, probably handles turbulence better, and of course is probably the nicest looking machine out there. The 66 would be a brand new machine and uses up less space in a hangar. The payloads for both appear to be about the same. How would maintenance costs compare?

 

Which of the two machines would you get and why?

[HELICOLT]

I would suggest flying both of them, but my personal preference would be the120

[rick1128]

While the 120 is a better machine overall, I would go with the R66. Based on my experience, Eurocopter customer support and parts are frustrating at best.

[apiaguy]

The 120. Everyone thinks the 120 is cool.

In this months flying magazine the article "a guide to bonehead moves" Dick Karl describes it best with his analogy of his (at the time) new P210. "Now that I was high and pressurized, a concept lost on most of my passengers, who thought this magnificent machine looked just like a 152 to them"

 

You'll never shed that it is a Robinson.

[IFLY]

Try talking to Mike Franz about the costs of flying and maintaining a 120, he has experience with it.

 

Jerry

[ADRidge]

I would wait a year or two on an R-66 personally. Never fly on the bleeding edge of technology, and I say that as a robbie lover.

[Adam S]

It's nice to know what your getting yourself into.

 

My only concern with the 66 is the unscheduled costs that might pop up like they have with some of the other Robbies, and trust me, I love flying a 44 but after all of the problems people post about the out of pocket expenses, I would never buy one. That being said, I'll still rent one every day of the week for the price I pay. .02

[Gunner]

120.... Because if you only fly it 100 hours in 12 years it's not a paperweight... I've flown the 120 but not the 66. Really like the 120 but thought it was a touch underpowered.

[helonorth]

I would say neither. I have never heard anything good about the 120. It seems like a helicopter for rich guys that don't know any better and public use that can dump gobs of cash into it relatively unnoticed. The R-66 may be a decent helicopter, but I have have a strong dislike for anything Robinson. Buy a 206B with some decent times and keep the extra $400,000-600,000 for a rainy day. You're gonna need it. I wouldn't sweat the hangar space, either. If you have a mil to blow on a helicopter, buy a bigger hangar.

Edited August 25, 2011 by helonorth

[ADRidge]

I would say neither. I have never heard anything good about the 120. It seems like a helicopter for rich guys that don't know any better and public use that can dump gobs of cash into it relatively unnoticed. The R-66 may be a decent helicopter, but I have have a strong dislike for anything Robinson. Buy a 206B with some decent times and keep the extra $400,000-600,000 for a rainy day. You're gonna need it. I wouldn't sweat the hangar space, either. If you have a mil to blow on a helicopter, buy a bigger hangar.

 

Not exactly diplomatic, but I agree. The -66 and the 120 are sexy because they're new or sleek, but the 206 is a tried and true platform that I wouldn't mind owning if I had that kind of money to play with.

[cherminator]

I would say neither. I have never heard anything good about the 120. It seems like a helicopter for rich guys that don't know any better and public use that can dump gobs of cash into it relatively unnoticed. The R-66 may be a decent helicopter, but I have have a strong dislike for anything Robinson. Buy a 206B with some decent times and keep the extra $400,000-600,000 for a rainy day. You're gonna need it. I wouldn't sweat the hangar space, either. If you have a mil to blow on a helicopter, buy a bigger hangar.

 

 

This thread generally seems to like the 120:

 

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/433407-ec120.html

 

I've only been in an older 206 (1970's) and was unfortunate enough to sit in the back seat, which really sucked for both comfort and visibility. Are the newer ones like that too? If so, I'm sure he would not be interested in a 206.

 

The guy has some dough so I don't think maintenance costs and and saving money on the initial purchase are an issue. Other than cost, why is the 206 a better machine to fly around in with your friends and family than the R66 or 120? Are some of the 206 specs better than those two machines?

[Goldy]

I've flown the R66 and its a fun and easy machine to fly. But to be fair, you really need to ask more questions. Yes the 120 looks awesome, yes pilots I have talked with say its underpowered in high temps and high DA. So if your friend is going to fly from his home on the beach to his private island offshore, no sweat! But if your friend is going to fly up to 9000 feet to go snow skiing, get the R66.

 

Everything is more expensive on the EC120...parts, maintenance,insurance,fuel use, etc. And yes the R66 is a light helicopter, about 500 pounds lighter than your average 206...so it does get tossed around a bit more.

 

So ask some questions about its use before you jump....and I would be looking at the E480B as well.

 

As far as the B206....yes I will fly one anyday anytime, but personally its not for me. The pilot seats are cramped for a big guy (6-5), the POH is one big set of limitations, the vis from the back seat is horrible, the door frame is in your periph vision, and I dont like having to only land with the wind from certain directions. Come one guys, put in a real tailrotor already!

[lelebebbel]

I'd consider a used 350BA instead of the 120.

[Spike]

Of the two mentioned, in my book the EC120 would get the nod. The R66 is essentially an “A” model machine, and historically these are the machines to avoid until they’ve had a few years of customer abuse to iron the bugs out.

 

However, the criteria you specified doesn’t provide a lot of information. Having said this, if someone came to me and asked for my opinion for what light single turbine powered helicopter would I suggest for his private use, and nothing more. I’d suggest the Bell 206BIII. Why? Simply because of the proven reliability, performance, crashworthiness, DOC (comparatively speaking), maintenance convenience and it’s easy to fly. Plus, Bell’s customer support is unsurpassed (although not as good as it used to be). This opinion would be based upon MY experience having dealt with multiple manufactures on various levels as a commercial pilot and mechanic….

 

Respectfully, I realize you’re probably doing due diligence seeking this information for your friend. However, this isn’t the place to get facts. I’d suggest you speak directly, face-to-face, to the operators of these machines to form your opinion and certainly, get your friend behind the controls to see for himself. I’ve witnessed million dollar mistakes before, and seen the victim (for the lack of a better word) go silent in order to conceal his ignorance….

[C of G]

Of the two mentioned, in my book the EC120 would get the nod. The R66 is essentially an “A” model machine, and historically these are the machines to avoid until they’ve had a few years of customer abuse to iron the bugs out.

 

 

The EC120B is an "A" model, too. Eurocopter called it the 120B to get passed that stigma.

[rick1128]

I'd consider a used 350BA instead of the 120.

 

Based on conversations I have had with 'FORMER' 350BA owners and operators, the BA would be way down my list. Primarily due to parts availability. While the EN480 or the S330/333 are interesting possibilities, I wouldn't call them true 4 place helicopters. I would put a lot of consideration into a 206B3. If your friend does consider a 206, and it is out of Europe, make sure he gets a Bell/Bell not an Agusta/Bell. Not all parts are interchangeable, plus there can certification problems with the parts.

[SBuzzkill]

Private use doing what? I noticed you're in B.C. ... Lots of mountains up there.

[RagMan]

Didn't Bell recently stop supporting the Jet-Ranger models? They no longer have them listed on their website, though they continue to advertise the 206L4 model Long-Ranger. I've heard a couple people mention that to me within the last couple of weeks.

[helonorth]

They stopped making 206B's, but I don't think they will stop supporting them any time soon. They're are 1000's still flying.

Edited August 30, 2011 by helonorth

[RkyMtnHI]

I can tell you what i know about operating above 6,000 feet in different platforms.

 

The 333 does fairly well but i would NEVER EVER recommend to anyone that you buy one. When i was looking into such everyone i spoke with that was operating them (some for years) said the same thing; 'they are great helicopters when they are flying, they just don't like to do that much'... the 333 that i almost bought turned out to be a POS and is now sitting in a hangar in pieces. It was a hangar queen from the start and there is no doubt the unfortunate folks that did buy it are wishing they would have done more research..

 

The EC120 is gorgeous, and has some amazing avionics, but, at this altitude the R44 constantly out performed it, especially during the summer (and you could buy three R44s for that price, just saying). On that subject, i would love to have an R66, and undoubtedly will have a few in the future as i absolutely love the Robinson products, but i cannot give you any personal input on that one as i have not flown one yet.. the friends that i have that have flown them LOVE the aircraft, but for now i can't say.. (that makes me think it's time i flew one... come on Pat or Goldy, set me up!!)

 

I have not flown the 480B, but from what i have picked up from talking to folks that have, it's pretty temp limited up here. If Tom and/or Clay are reading this i'd like to know if the engine is a C18 or a C20. I think the C18 is in the 206B2 and is extremely limited up here, not sure about the engines but would like some clarification on that.. the B2 (both the Bell and the Eurocopter) being limited up here i am NOT unclear about.

 

The 206B3 is better up here, but still limited at times... especially during the summer or at the higher altitudes (above 10K').

 

Now, if i were looking, i'd probably buy a Bell product, i love the AStars, but for the price, parts availability, and everything else, i'd pick an L3 or 4.. if the $$$ we no issue i'd put a Van Horn tail rotor conversion on those or buy a 407.

 

If $$ were no issue at all, i'd buy a EC130.

 

jmhoaidks, (just my humble opinion and i don't know sh*t)

 

dp

[280fxColorado]

 

I have not flown the 480B, but from what i have picked up from talking to folks that have, it's pretty temp limited up here. If Tom and/or Clay are reading this i'd like to know if the engine is a C18 or a C20. I think the C18 is in the 206B2 and is extremely limited up here, not sure about the engines but would like some clarification on that.. the B2 (both the Bell and the Eurocopter) being limited up here i am NOT unclear about.

 

 

dp

 

C20.

 

http://www.enstromhelicopter.com/enstrom_new/documents/480B%20Specifications%20Sheet%20Commercial.pdf

[Goldy]

i would love to have an R66, and undoubtedly will have a few in the future as i absolutely love the Robinson products, but i cannot give you any personal input on that one as i have not flown one yet.. the friends that i have that have flown them LOVE the aircraft, but for now i can't say.. (that makes me think it's time i flew one... come on Pat or Goldy, set me up!!)

 

Maybe we could convince Robinson to fly an R66 up to Vegas for the expo?? Wish I would have thought of that last week when I was sitting next to both Kurt and Frank...(and even Pat stopped by!)

 

Just for the record, I would be happy to fly one up if they need a pilot. Hey, gotta put 5 hours on them anyway! 2.5 up and 2.5 back home!!

 

Goldy

[Goldy]

but for the price, parts availability, and everything else, i'd pick an L3 or 4..

 

I agree with that one, an L4 with a Van Horn would be great at high altitudes...and you would know!

[gary-mike]

Maybe we could convince Robinson to fly an R66 up to Vegas for the expo?? Wish I would have thought of that last week when I was sitting next to both Kurt and Frank...(and even Pat stopped by!)

 

Just for the record, I would be happy to fly one up if they need a pilot. Hey, gotta put 5 hours on them anyway! 2.5 up and 2.5 back home!!

 

Goldy

 

If you get ahold of one, I think it should be tested for suitabilty/durability with a beginer behind the T-bar... I know just the man that could fill that seat

[cherminator]

Private use doing what? I noticed you're in B.C. ... Lots of mountains up there.

 

Yes we live in a town surrounded by mountains so that would have to be given some serious consideration. He's an outdoorsy sort of guy, so it would be for sightseeing, exploring the backcountry and landing at lakes and rivers to fish/camp, etc.