WOFT aircraft selection?

[SBuzzkill]

Edit: I never really understood what the f*ck that was. I think it was something like after a certain point you had to start pulling the cyclic back because the nose wanted to dip.

Edited January 13, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[stearmann4]

Sounds like someone needs more 22 time.

 

I know someone else who needs to quit screwing around in the piston powered JV and get her packet in...

[Velocity173]

 

 

NWH is a great company, very hard to get in the "circle" though. I started flying for the museum which is owned by the same guy. Flew the Stearman yesterday for an hour, bout' froze to death.

 

Oh man, EAA is giving away a Stearman in this years drawing. It's mine! I think this is the only year I'm going to submit more additional entries. I love the Stearman.

[d10]

being a UH-60 pilot could get you talking to CBP, Firehawk, etc (d10 just got another job he might want to mention), and I'm not sure how being an Apache pilot will *directly* relate to a civvie job for obvious reasons.

 

Nope. It's not very relevant, just one very small operator looking for a very specific background. You are right though that a UH-60 qualification is more valuable than an AH-64 qualification as a civilian. Sikorsky is selling a lot of Black Hawks to foreign military. If you're a UH-60M IP or MTP getting out of the military right now you'll have no trouble finding work.

 

As far as working as a CFI on active duty, I think you should look into this before you make PC. The schedule of an RL1 PI in garrison is going to be a lot like Velocity posted with very few opportunities for flight time. You'll notice that's a LOT of time spent basically looking for ways to stay busy, and there's a lot of flexibility as long as you're taking care of your additional duties. Unless you have a really bad chain of command they're going to be happy giving you time off to improve yourself and your value to the Army. You'll see people taking a ton of time off for college. How do you think it will look if you're like "Hey I know it's hard for PIs to get enough flight time to stay proficient right now, so would it be OK if I leave early today and flew on my own? I'd like to stay proficient at full down autos too, which I'll be doing with a student who has all of 30 hours total time. By the way, when is the next PC board?"

[Lindsey]

 

 

Nope. It's not very relevant, just one very small operator looking for a very specific background. You are right though that a UH-60 qualification is more valuable than an AH-64 qualification as a civilian. Sikorsky is selling a lot of Black Hawks to foreign military. If you're a UH-60M IP or MTP getting out of the military right now you'll have no trouble finding work.

 

As far as working as a CFI on active duty, I think you should look into this before you make PC. The schedule of an RL1 PI in garrison is going to be a lot like Velocity posted with very few opportunities for flight time. You'll notice that's a LOT of time spent basically looking for ways to stay busy, and there's a lot of flexibility as long as you're taking care of your additional duties. Unless you have a really bad chain of command they're going to be happy giving you time off to improve yourself and your value to the Army. You'll see people taking a ton of time off for college. How do you think it will look if you're like "Hey I know it's hard for PIs to get enough flight time to stay proficient right now, so would it be OK if I leave early today and flew on my own? I'd like to stay proficient at full down autos too, which I'll be doing with a student who has all of 30 hours total time. By the way, when is the next PC board?"

 

Except that typically in the civilian world, we don't do full downs except with CFI applicants. But that's very interesting info. Would it not be seen as conflicting with time you could be using to study for your PC ride?

[d10]

Not unless you're struggling to keep your Army airframe knowledge separate from your R-22 knowledge. A lot of the PC ride is demonstrating good judgement, decision making, and knowledge of the local airspace and flight rules. You could easily argue that your flights as a CFI are doing more to prepare you for a successful PC ride than sitting at a table playing stump the chump with a VFR sectional for the 100th time.

[Velocity173]

 

 

Except that typically in the civilian world, we don't do full downs except with CFI applicants. But that's very interesting info. Would it not be seen as conflicting with time you could be using to study for your PC ride?

 

Lindsey they really don't care what you do in your own time as far as conflicting with studying for a PC ride. Trust me, as IPs we know who stands out and who doesn't. Leading up to a PC ride I take input from all my PCs as to where you stand. When I hear " Lindsey knows her s$&t, makes good decisions and is rock solid on the controls." That's when i see how far along you are on your PC checklist, and get a print out from flight ops to see if you have the min hours dictated by Battalion. If everything checks, then you get put up for a PC board. This board usually consists of the SP, CDR, and any PCs who are available. Sometimes the Battalion CDR (LTCol)wants to sit in to give his input since he's the one signing you off in the first place. It doesn't have to be unanimous. You'll have people who just don't like you and don't think you should be a PC. That's where the SP will sit down with the commander and decide if you warrant a ride. If so, generally you take a written test, do an IFR x-country, NVG tactics eval and you're done. I fill out your records, you take it to the Battalion CDR who gives you his wisdom on how not to screw up, signs your records and now your a newly minted PC in the Army. That's your PC "ride" in a nutshell.

 

You'll do fine Lindsey. I flew a few former CFI students at Rucker and they were all solid. The highest grade (96) I ever put a student up for on a check ride was a former CFI. Although she had a problem with my PC authority, she still was the best student I had in 3 1/2 yrs of instructing at Rucker.

 

Keep your priorities straight. You mentioned concentrating on PC and not flying R22s in your spare time. If you can juggle both then great, but your priority according to the the commander's guide (411) says your primary goal as a PI is to become PC. It's not only competitive to get in and graduate. You'll be competing with other WO1 PIs who all want to make PC as well. If your performance stands out from the rest then you should make PC before them. With your experience and from what I've read from your comments, the Army would be lucky to have you as a PC in their ranks...submit your packet!

[akscott60]

We are talking about a PC ride in an airframe selection thread with potential candidates?

 

Lets try each 25m target, one at a time.

 

Like applying, passing BCT, WOCS, SERE, primary, instruments, bws, selecting 58s, etc.

 

The important things ;-)

[Velocity173]

We are adjusting fire from the aircraft selection thread and evolving into a PC selection thread.

[DC8488]

Selecting 58s! Ha Ha!

[Lindsey]

 

 

Lindsey they really don't care what you do in your own time as far as conflicting with studying for a PC ride. Trust me, as IPs we know who stands out and who doesn't. Leading up to a PC ride I take input from all my PCs as to where you stand. When I hear " Lindsey knows her s$&t, makes good decisions and is rock solid on the controls." That's when i see how far along you are on your PC checklist, and get a print out from flight ops to see if you have the min hours dictated by Battalion. If everything checks, then you get put up for a PC board. This board usually consists of the SP, CDR, and any PCs who are available. Sometimes the Battalion CDR (LTCol)wants to sit in to give his input since he's the one signing you off in the first place. It doesn't have to be unanimous. You'll have people who just don't like you and don't think you should be a PC. That's where the SP will sit down with the commander and decide if you warrant a ride. If so, generally you take a written test, do an IFR x-country, NVG tactics eval and you're done. I fill out your records, you take it to the Battalion CDR who gives you his wisdom on how not to screw up, signs your records and now your a newly minted PC in the Army. That's your PC "ride" in a nutshell.

 

You'll do fine Lindsey. I flew a few former CFI students at Rucker and they were all solid. The highest grade (96) I ever put a student up for on a check ride was a former CFI. Although she had a problem with my PC authority, she still was the best student I had in 3 1/2 yrs of instructing at Rucker.

 

Keep your priorities straight. You mentioned concentrating on PC and not flying R22s in your spare time. If you can juggle both then great, but your priority according to the the commander's guide (411) says your primary goal as a PI is to become PC. It's not only competitive to get in and graduate. You'll be competing with other WO1 PIs who all want to make PC as well. If your performance stands out from the rest then you should make PC before them. With your experience and from what I've read from your comments, the Army would be lucky to have you as a PC in their ranks...submit your packet!

 

When you refer to minimum hours dictated by Battalion, do they take into account any civilian time, or just make/model? By the way, thanks for the vote of confidence.

 

Akscott--just finished up a run (25m target). A little extra knowledge on the career never hurt anyone. And those 58s....my heart has always been with 60s but I definitely glance sideways at the Kiowa's "style" of flying. NOE, doors off...sigh. We'll see.

[Velocity173]

Lindsey the total hours thing is kinda vague. While you can get your civilian flight time added to your military 759 print out (I never did), most likely your CDR won't look at it for PC time. Look at it this way. A PI in 60s requires about 300hrs TT minimum to be put up for a ride. If you came in the Army with that time already from being a CFI, well then you'd be up for a PC ride as soon as you progressed to RL1. Nothing against your R22 time, but you need experience in the aircraft you've been assigned to fly and the varied missions (60s) it does. You're not just studying limits and EPs, you're studying a weapon system and how it interacts with other combat branches.

 

All of this is an addition to the base (1000 series) and mission (2000 series) tasks you'll do in progression from the Aircrew Training Manual. So you can see you have a lot of stuff that has really nothing to do with civilian flying. If I was on the board I would weigh your civilian experience heavily, but I wouldn't use your civilian time for total time.

 

Oh, so we stay on thread, pick Black Hawks. You can't go wrong.

[Lindsey]

I am drooling over that list! Don't worry, I definitely realize that R22 time is not comparable to -60 time. I was more wondering if it was factored into the equation mathematically. I just surpassed 300 hours TT not too long ago, funny enough. That PC task list gives me a great idea of the differences. Is the RL2/RL1 list similar to that, or is it more of a maneuver-oriented list similar to a civilian PTS?

 

Regarding Hawks, I love the mission and the airframe. The Kiowa...I mainly like the airframe. Everyone says to choose your airframe for the mission, and there you have it.

[Velocity173]

I am drooling over that list! Don't worry, I definitely realize that R22 time is not comparable to -60 time. I was more wondering if it was factored into the equation mathematically. I just surpassed 300 hours TT not too long ago, funny enough. That PC task list gives me a great idea of the differences. Is the RL2/RL1 list similar to that, or is it more of a maneuver-oriented list similar to a civilian PTS?

 

Regarding Hawks, I love the mission and the airframe. The Kiowa...I mainly like the airframe. Everyone says to choose your airframe for the mission, and there you have it.

 

It's like a civilian PTS. I'm not going to list all of those tasks because it's a crap load. If you're really interested you can download a TC 1-237 (UH-60 ATM) online. It'll give the basics on training / evaluation standards.

 

Yeah I was big on Apaches when I was in flight school. The only aircraft I even thought about flying other than 64s was 58s. Black Hawks weren't even remotely on my mind. A few things happened. At the time Black Hawk Down (the book) was out and I was reading it and enjoyed it. I did all the little observation / battle hand over tasks in BCS in OH-58s and didn't really care for it. I met my future IP (prior 160th DAP) working out at the gym. He sat me down for a few minutes and filled me on the missions the Hawk does compared to other airframes. I was sold after that and picked 60s. Like I said though, I would have been happy flying anything. Although we usually never hung out with guys from other airframes, there is no rivalry or smack talk. When you go to combat with one another you realize the importance right away of having attack / observation assets overhead. When ever I was assigned to go into a particular nasty place, the first question I asked the Ops O is "Do I have an attack escort." If yes, I breathed a whole lot better knowing they were watching over us.

[SBuzzkill]

Regarding Hawks, I love the mission and the airframe. The Kiowa...I mainly like the airframe. Everyone says to choose your airframe for the mission, and there you have it.

 

I agree with choose the mission. The problem is that it's very hard to get a good grasp on what an airframe does until you are out of flight school flying it in the big army. I've wanted to be a scout since I came in the army, but that was pretty much based on loving the 2 seat airframe and reading a couple books. It wasn't until I got out and started flying at the unit that I realized how busy and flexible the scout mission actually is. It's nothing like anything we did in flight school.

[akscott60]

No kidding SBuzzkill. It wouldnt surprise me if I went to work one day and we started slingload training. Haha

[akscott60]

Lindsey, keeping up civilian flying will be a good idea in the era of drawdowns, less flying hours, and general garrison unpleasentless we are in for.

Edited January 13, 2013 by akscott60

[wm200]

Can you expect to get 2000 hours during a 6 year enlistment?

[Velocity173]

Can you expect to get 2000 hours during a 6 year enlistment?

 

If it was 10 yrs ago, possibly. Nowadays you'll be lucky to average 150 hrs a year during peacetime. After 6 yrs, 1 1/2 deployments and a yr as an IP I had about 1,800 hrs. No one is going to average 300 hrs a year today unless they're an IP or they lied on their flight time.

[stearmann4]

If it was 10 yrs ago, possibly. Nowadays you'll be lucky to average 150 hrs a year during peacetime. After 6 yrs, 1 1/2 deployments and a yr as an IP I had about 1,800 hrs. No one is going to average 300 hrs a year today unless they're an IP or they lied on their flight time.

That's a true statement and expect the progression times to get longer with aircraft eventually coming back from OEF and going into at least a year long re-set period. The only good thing about USAREC thinning out accessions is that you most likely won't in-process your unit with 5 other WO1s and you'll all be assigned busy work in the S1/S3 etc waiting for an OML to progress. We've brought pilots into the unit who were made FAC 3 when they checked in and were left to rot for over a year (non-flying) because the unit either didn't have enough IPs, too many WO1s that needed to progress, not enough aircraft or a combination of all three. With budget cuts coming unfortunately I think we're going to see the return of this kind of stuff. All that to say that no, you probably won't make 2,000 hours unless you go to Rucker where you're guaranteed to fly almost every day.

[wm200]

150hours a year is pretty disappointing. I thought it was more like 300-400. Are the other services the same way? Shouldn't it get better due to the Army shrinking and the amount of helicopters staying the same?

[Velocity173]

150hours a year is pretty disappointing. I thought it was more like 300-400. Are the other services the same way? Shouldn't it get better due to the Army shrinking and the amount of helicopters staying the same?

 

Prior to 9/11 I read an article in AAAA that said the most I could get in 60s was 200 hrs per year (Korea). That was an acurate prewar assessment. After 9/11 pilot's hours have fluctuated greatly. While deployed, a PC can get about 500 - 600 hrs during that year. This is even with their unit 200 % strength. For an IP it will be a little more. My last deployment I got 875 only because I was assigned a General and our BTL CDR used his IPs heavily. Once you redeploy the money dries up and the stay busy work appears. Now you will get about 1/3 of the flying hours. The 60 ATM specifies a FAC 1 aviator must get a minimum of 96 hrs per year. for a few of my guys after redeployment, that was tight. A FAC 2 guy (staffer) must get 60 hrs. I actually had to use our redeployment waiver for some guys who didn't meet their 60 hrs! Hours of course will vary depending on duty station but having talked to my buds at different places, they were hurting as well.

 

So now with this current crop going to flight school and nowhere to deploy when they get out, 150 hrs is about what they can expect. For A LOT of people the life of an Army Aviator will be a rude awaking. Stearmann hit on it a little with the above post. If you look at the non flying day schedule I posted above you'll pretty much see your typical day in a nutshell. I didn't even list all the computer exercises or field exercises you'll do either. A lack of money and excess pilots is the biggest reason but there will be plenty of other hurtles in your way to the cockpit. You'll have missions where they will only pick the most senior guys so you'll sit. You'll have weather days. You'll have safety days, training days, DONSAs / holidays. You'll have local area restrictions like no flights on Fridays or noise abatement times when you can't fly. You'll have an IP who could care less about building hours and put off your progression or eval. You'll have courses to attend and additional duties to do. You'll have aircraft down for a variety of reasons canceling your flight. Your aircraft will break in flight reducing your flying time. You'll have a platoon leader who is trying to get as many hours as possible in hopes of becoming PC so he bumps you. Finally and probably most important you'll have ground units who simply don't need to train with you all the time. I almost called some infantry units to drum up some business. When you get tired of not flying you either go IP or 160th. Both good choices.

 

As far as other services? Sure a transport guy is flying a bunch because they're long flights. From what I've read helos and fighters about 200-250. You can actually look at the Blue Angel pilot bios and see they were only getting about 200 hrs per year before being selected to the team. People who want to fly their butts off don't join the service, they join the airlines.

[Lindsey]

Not unless you're struggling to keep your Army airframe knowledge separate from your R-22 knowledge. A lot of the PC ride is demonstrating good judgement, decision making, and knowledge of the local airspace and flight rules. You could easily argue that your flights as a CFI are doing more to prepare you for a successful PC ride than sitting at a table playing stump the chump with a VFR sectional for the 100th time.

 

That makes perfect sense, actually. Thanks.

 

Lindsey, keeping up civilian flying will be a good idea in the era of drawdowns, less flying hours, and general garrison unpleasentless we are in for.

 

Very good point, might as well get the hours where and when I can.

 

When you get tired of not flying you either go IP or 160th. Both good choices.

 

So, since we've discussed PC progression, how about tracking, especially in a drawdown environment? Obviously I'd like to track IP (100000000m target) - are there any particular things you can do at your unit to increase your probability of being chosen for that track? What if, say, a Safety or TACOPS slot opens up, but you really want to track IP -- would you recommend taking it, or passing it up in hopes of garnering an IP slot later on?

 

Yes, I've gone on my run today. Just looking to soak up as much info as possible.

[Velocity173]

 

 

That makes perfect sense, actually. Thanks.

 

 

 

Very good point, might as well get the hours where and when I can.

 

 

 

So, since we've discussed PC progression, how about tracking, especially in a drawdown environment? Obviously I'd like to track IP (100000000m target) - are there any particular things you can do at your unit to increase your probability of being chosen for that track? What if, say, a Safety or TACOPS slot opens up, but you really want to track IP -- would you recommend taking it, or passing it up in hopes of garnering an IP slot later on?

 

Yes, I've gone on my run today. Just looking to soak up as much info as possible.

 

Well that's an excellent question. Obviously how you perform is important if you want to track IP. It's not just about the flying, but if someone has other professional or even personal issues they can forget about it. The commander and the SP have to write a recommendation letter for you to even attend the school.

 

The problem with passing up Safety or TACOPS in hopes of IP might hurt your chances of promotion later on if you're not tracked. Obviously they only have so many IP slots available. A typical Hawk company needs only three. One is the SP and possibly the IE, the other two are just IPs. You've got one safety dude. One, possibly two TACOPS. One possibly two MTPs.

 

I would recommend taking any track they offer. Ive worked with Safety guys who later tracked IP, and MTPs who later tracked IP. If they don't offer anything and you still aren't tracked at the end of your first duty station, then put in for Rucker. Unfortunately there are rare cases with people that go to Rucker and get put into some BS position at 1-145 and not IP. Generally these people eventually get the IP course though. Once they show up to the flight line though they're ticked off for rotting in whatever admin job they were doing prior.

 

So basically Lindsey it amounts to determination and a whole lot of luck. I had a guy in my last unit who wanted either Safety or IP. At the time I was the SP and had no other IPs. He was the only real choice that I had since he had the most hrs (800) and no one else was even close. We already had a Safety guy so he just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

[Lindsey]

Great info as always, Velocity, thanks. You mentioned you were an IP...are you also a civilian CFI and have you worked in that capacity? Either way, I'm curious as to what the differences are between the two. Obviously as an Army IP at a unit, you aren't teaching someone the rudimentary basics of how to fly, so what are you teaching? What types of advanced skills? Also, do you approach the flight as an instructor, where the point of the flight is to teach your "student" how to do a particular maneuver? Or, are most flights more like check flights, and then you build on what they know and show them another way to do something?