Wally Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 As previously cited, 1.1 is clear:"(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." C'mon guys! Certificate considerations don't enter into it, blade time, turning and burning aren't flight time. Logical extremes- you can't log required pre-flight actions, recording maintenance discrepancies, etc. as though it were flight time even though these could be grounds for certificate actions. Does that mean I won't log time I've landed, short-term, to hold for traffic? Maybe, maybe not, but the definition is clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I formulated this opinion based off of quite a few success stories from pilots who did not meet the posted minimum for the job, but they were relatively close, the hiring party needed a pilot, and they demonstrated that they were at the same level. This would be correct.. Out of the 11 operators I’ve worked for, I only met the hourly requirements for about half….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BH206L3 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Well I had an employer sign my name to an insurance form stating something other that what I had at the time, I quite the same day. It's insurance fraud, he was stupid and left the form by the fax machine and he asked me to fax flight plans to a client. I would have never known other wise. Every body dumps on pilots for everything. And pilots get the blame for every thing, but as much dirt that they claim pilots do, Employers are just as dirty if not more so. Now at the time with that ferry job, I needed the money and the job. I still quite it was a hard thing to do and the only guy hurt by it was me, then again I have to live with what I see in the Mirror too. Looking back it was the right thing to do, the Economy when south and that job would not have lasted but for maybe 2 or 3 trips. Pay was 1000 per crossing. It was not worth it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 All this would go away if employers would stop using arbitrary numbers to sort through us!,...and of course if there weren't so damn many of us out there competing for so few jobs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 On another note. My father used to play golf with this old doctor. I remember him saying once that a lot of old airline pilots would go to him because he would "keep them flying". What are the thoughts on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 On another note. My father used to play golf with this old doctor. I remember him saying once that a lot of old airline pilots would go to him because he would "keep them flying". What are the thoughts on that? I think there are quite a few pilots out there that have no business being in the air, but the good 'ole boy system keeps em "legal". Case in point: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/03/11001564-80-year-old-woman-lands-plane-after-husband-passes-out?lite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/737/737.F2d.545.83-3226.html I wonder how they figured that one out? 150 hours isn't much out of 1500 plus hours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 As previously cited, 1.1 is clear:"(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." I agree with Wally. It is pretty clear. When I push the starter before I go to fly, I can only speak for the helicopters I fly, but they starts bouncing (moving under its own power for the purpose of flight) and doesn't stop shaking (comes to rest) until I let go of the rotor brake. Thank goodness for a non perfect track and balance, or I couldn't log most of the time. On the other hand, for maintenance test run ups, not for the purpose of flight.... That's a grey area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I didn't want to spool the topic, but I've been witness of another thing: A tour operator was asking the pilot to log only 0.3 per trip, whatever it takes to save on maintenance.He accept to do so, but the pilot was logging real time, because it was low timer and need to build hours! When he was applying for another job, guess what? The next employer was requesting from the previous, the reccord of flying time for the company, hours didn't match, the pilot was accused to fudge his logbook, he didn't get the job and he has a real pain to hit another job. Questions: who was wrong?, who lie?, what about operator integrity? Note: Since this time, the pilot stop flying, but for another reason!The operator still continue to fly without any problem! :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 IMO The rotorblades are "flying" as soon as they start turning, and the pilot is in control of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I didn't want to spool the topic, but I've been witness of another thing: A tour operator was asking the pilot to log only 0.3 per trip, whatever it takes to save on maintenance.He accept to do so, but the pilot was logging real time, because it was low timer and need to build hours! When he was applying for another job, guess what? The next employer was requesting from the previous, the reccord of flying time for the company, hours didn't match, the pilot was accused to fudge his logbook, he didn't get the job and he has a real pain to hit another job. Questions: who was wrong?, who lie?, what about operator integrity? Note: Since this time, the pilot stop flying, but for another reason!The operator still continue to fly without any problem! :/ The pilot is responsible for accepting the unethical practice of his employer. However, he was a low timer, who didn't want to lose his job. Fear of unemployment, especially in this economy, can make desperate people do desperate (and albiet stupid) things! If the pilot had kept his integrity he probably would have been fired. He probably feared that he would never find another flying job? As it turned out, losing his integrity had the same results! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 As previously cited, 1.1 is clear:"(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." C'mon guys! Certificate considerations don't enter into it, blade time, turning and burning aren't flight time. Logical extremes- you can't log required pre-flight actions, recording maintenance discrepancies, etc. as though it were flight time even though these could be grounds for certificate actions. Does that mean I won't log time I've landed, short-term, to hold for traffic? Maybe, maybe not, but the definition is clear. I don't know how aircraft hours get logged in turbines, but I have been flying both fixed wing and rotor wing piston aircraft for more than 10 years. I have always logged flight time off the Hobbs meter which starts turning with the engine (on most aircraft). Never once have I started the clock the moment the skids (or wheels) come off the ground. If you are insinuating this is wrong, then I think every flight school in the country has been doing it wrong since the dawn of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo2181 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 On the other hand, for maintenance test run ups, not for the purpose of flight.... That's a grey area. Maintenance starts are not a grey area as it is not for the purpose of flight. This is the reason non-airman mechanics can start and taxi airplanes to run up areas without being busted for operating without a license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I don't know how aircraft hours get logged in turbines, but I have been flying both fixed wing and rotor wing piston aircraft for more than 10 years. I have always logged flight time off the Hobbs meter which starts turning with the engine (on most aircraft). Never once have I started the clock the moment the skids (or wheels) come off the ground. If you are insinuating this is wrong, then I think every flight school in the country has been doing it wrong since the dawn of time. When I flew the 300, the cfi told me there was a seperate hobbs meter that started turning once the skids left the ground. The R44 also has a hobbs that doesn't start until the collective is raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 When I flew the 300, the cfi told me there was a seperate hobbs meter that started turning once the skids left the ground. The R44 also has a hobbs that doesn't start until the collective is raised. The 22 only has one hobbs and it's not linked to the skids. So 'legally' would I need to start a timer right before I break ground and stop it as soon as the skids touch? Screw that. I'm paying for what the hobbs says I flew, so that's what I'm logging. The 300 does have two hobbs, one runs when the battery switch is on, the other runs when the skids are up. Which one do you think they use to log flight time/maintenance time? Logged all my C172 time based off the hobbs. That included run ups. If the prop was turning, so was the hobbs. I've only been doing it the way I was taught. And I have trained/taught with 5 different schools total since 2001. Every one of them did it the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 The 22 only has one hobbs and it's not linked to the skids. So 'legally' would I need to start a timer right before I break ground and stop it as soon as the skids touch? Screw that. I'm paying for what the hobbs says I flew, so that's what I'm logging. The 300 does have two hobbs, one runs when the battery switch is on, the other runs when the skids are up. Which one do you think they use to log flight time/maintenance time? Logged all my C172 time based off the hobbs. That included run ups. If the prop was turning, so was the hobbs. I've only been doing it the way I was taught. And I have trained/taught with 5 different schools total since 2001. Every one of them did it the same. I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Just another thought, but when making statements such as this (and not in jest), one should take care to protect their secret identity more than Superman did with Clark Kent :-) If I was an employer and knew of a person who said things like that, I wouldn't even take the time to check their logbook to see if they were honest or not. I would file that resume in the circular bin at my feet and move on to one of the other resumes on my desk. If they did take the time to look at my logbook they would find some whiteout on my PIC time, with a post-it explaining that a cfi incorrectly logged R44 time for me as PIC, even though he had not given me the PIC endorsement after the first 5hrs (and I hadn't bothered to check to see that I needed one (the stupid naive student that I was)). I didn't realize the mistake until my trip to RHC where they went over that damn SFAR. So, now I need 25 more hours PIC to get to that magical 1000PIC so that I can "apply" for a turbine job! My integrity is well intact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Double post Edited July 17, 2012 by Pohi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Maintenance starts are not a grey area as it is not for the purpose of flight. This is the reason non-airman mechanics can start and taxi airplanes to run up areas without being busted for operating without a license. I understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 When I flew the 300, the cfi told me there was a seperate hobbs meter that started turning once the skids left the ground. The R44 also has a hobbs that doesn't start until the collective is raised. The school I went to went ahead and added another Hobbs, connected to oil pressure on their 44. And like already posted, guess which one was billed to the students for flight time? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 ^ We have the same thing. Maintenance and Flight Hobbs on our 500's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I don't know how aircraft hours get logged in turbines, but I have been flying both fixed wing and rotor wing piston aircraft for more than 10 years. I have always logged flight time off the Hobbs meter which starts turning with the engine (on most aircraft). Never once have I started the clock the moment the skids (or wheels) come off the ground. If you are insinuating this is wrong, then I think every flight school in the country has been doing it wrong since the dawn of time. Blade time, engine time, Hobbs time, billed time, etc., are not flight experience, which is what is supposed to be reflected in your log book entries. If sitting "turning and burning" is a significant event in your flight experience, by all means, log it. Maybe that's why flight schools charge that way? The second I pull collective, the clock starts; the second I lock it down, it stops. I use my big ugly aviator watch, pen and paper. Edited July 17, 2012 by Wally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Good point Wally. I'm sure the minute warmup and two minute cool down is all routine for you. But as a flight instructor, I'm teaching procedures, and my student is learning. I think that should be loggable. After all, we are charging them for the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helipilot PTK Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 If they did take the time to look at my logbook they would find some whiteout on my PIC time, with a post-it explaining that a cfi incorrectly logged R44 time for me as PIC, even though he had not given me the PIC endorsement after the first 5hrs (and I hadn't bothered to check to see that I needed one (the stupid naive student that I was)). I didn't realize the mistake until my trip to RHC where they went over that damn SFAR. So, now I need 25 more hours PIC to get to that magical 1000PIC so that I can "apply" for a turbine job! My integrity is well intact! I went back and was totaling up each page in my logbook to make sure the hours were correct. I found out I had incorrectly totaled a few pages and in doing so added approximately 3 hours of flight time. So I to have white out in my logbook, I don't however have a post it note explaining. Maybe I should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 When I did some traing in the 44 the cfi told me to add .1 to the flight to account for the hobbs not turning until the collective is raised. Anyone else do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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