Fudging the logbook

[nightsta1ker]

I have had some conversations recently that have led me to believe that quite a few helicopter pilots out there have secured jobs by fudging their logbooks. My question is, how common is this? Do employers verify what they see in a prospective employee's logbook by making a few phone calls? Or is the hiring process based more on the honor system? I would never fudge my logbook, in fact I often audit it to make sure I have not miscalculated page totals or entered incorrect hours by bouncing it off the aircraft logbook. It sickens me to think that there are pilots out there flying turbines that got their jobs by lying about how much experience they have. However, it doesn't really surprise me much either. The job market is tough, and with the only thing standing in a pilot's way to getting that next job being some numbers in a book, it is probably pretty tempting for some people to just fudge some numbers.

 

I am curious to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

[Wally]

I've read about logbook auditing, but never seen it done.

 

I know people lie, logged time would be a very tempting falsification to somebody needing a job. There's a principle beyond integrity that has to be born in mind- if you tell a single lie, you're a liar. It's logical to treat every statement made by a liar as suspect. That might well finish your job even if you were an exemplary hiring when it surfaced

[zippiesdrainage]

I personally know a guy who did, and he got caught. Cost him a job. I don't think they called his former employers or audited it entry by entry. I think they looked at how many hours he had logged since starting his last job and compared it to how many they think he should have built in that time doing the work he was doing.

[Retreating Brain Stall]

Integrity is super important! Most companies I believe are going by the honor system. Makes me sick too to see and hear of or suspect it is occurring. Sadly I've watched other honestly earn there pay raises from former employers and suspected others and known of others that obtained pay raises even after personally cautioning the supervisor of the warning on the individuals integrity. The only way I see being able to contribute to the industry is when it is my turn to make those hiring decisions is do my best to search for individuals that are honest. Thats the only justice I can find is some day I'll be in the situation to make decisions and reward others or turn others down based on integrity and self accounting with that individual.

[Mikemv]

There have been some changes lately that will identify those pilots that falsify times in their log books.

 

At a DHS/TSA/FAA summit I attended in March, this topic was informally discussed during a coffee break and it was mentioned that pilot employment and flight times can be verified through electronic means. Know that all flight physicals will be electronic by October and flight times listed on these forms along with verification by previous employers, 135 records, insurance forms and 8710s must all agree. I know of three pilots currently being investigated.

 

Do not ruin your careers by falsifying your paperwork, it is easy to get caught and destroys your integrity immediately & for the future.

 

Employers are looking for pilots they can trust with passengers lives and with the helicopters they provide. Own your training and every flight to develop your flying & head work skill sets. Use industry Best Practices above and beyond your SOP. Do the right thing when no one is looking. Learn about Safety Culture & Safety Management Systems principles and where the industry is going.

 

Attending Heli Success will give you insight into what employers in various operational segments require/desire. Pilots with resumes in the proper format that present themselves well can get hired with experience levels below desired minimums at times. Other times minimums must be met. Recommendations from industry people that know you are honest, hard working, safe and sincere carry a lot of weight.

 

Mike

[nightsta1ker]

As usual Mike, a great post. It definitely soothes me to know that this issue is getting some attention. Nothing is more discouraging than watching the hours slowly build year after year, usually by the tens, rather than the hundreds, while other guys that you KNOW have not been flying that much are moving on to bigger and better things.

[eagle5]

How much "fudging" are we talking about? Could a 500hr pilot fudge his way into a 1000hrs pilot job? Could he really demonstrate his skills to the level they would expect from a 1000hr pilot?

 

...or are we just talking about 5hrs here 7hrs there, over a couple years, so that this newly hired 1000hr pilot is really only a 960hr pilot?

Edited July 15, 2012 by eagle5

[nightsta1ker]

How much "fudging" are we talking about? Could a 500hr pilot fudge his way into a 1000hrs pilot job? Could he really demonstrate his skills to the level they would expect from a 1000hr pilot?

 

...or are we just talking about 5hrs here 7hrs there, over a couple years, so that this newly hired 1000hr pilot is really only a 960hr pilot?

 

I'm talking in the hundreds of hours here. One individual in question was doing the same job as another that I know and moved on to an EMS position (usually minimum of 2500 hours) before the guy I know had gotten 1000. We did the math and he would have needed to have been flying 40 hours per week. Although it is possible, it's very highly unlikely. On top of that, he was known to be a shady character. Two and two usually equals four in my experience.

 

There are a few other rumors I have heard lately about this kind of behavior, some of it overseas (Kiwis fudging time to get tuna-boat jobs, etc.) and some of it here stateside.

[eagle5]

Hmmm,

 

If low time pilots can fudge hundreds of hours and actually get high time pilot jobs (i.e. they still have to prove themselves in the cockpit!), what does that say about minimum hour requirements?

[SBuzzkill]

Not everything can be tested on a check ride.

[gary-mike]

This topic is sickening! There is no room for lack of integrity in aviation. If you lack integrity, or ever think about it then please choose another career field before you selfishly kill someone! This applies to both pilots, and maintenance. Integrity first!

[Pohi]

Hmmm,

 

If low time pilots can fudge hundreds of hours and actually get high time pilot jobs (i.e. they still have to prove themselves in the cockpit!), what does that say about minimum hour requirements?

 

The minimum hour requirements are not about ability, it's about reducing the number of resumes a company has to dig through :-)

[lelebebbel]

Hmmm,

 

If low time pilots can fudge hundreds of hours and actually get high time pilot jobs (i.e. they still have to prove themselves in the cockpit!), what does that say about minimum hour requirements?

 

It says that someone might be able to BS his way into a job and do it most of the time. What it doesn't say is what will happen if that person is put under pressure, has to make a difficult decision or deal with an emergency. "Proving themselves" in the cockpit might end up with said cockpit firmly embedded in the ground. Who knows how many times it already has.

Edited July 16, 2012 by lelebebbel

[nightsta1ker]

eagle5, I personally believe there are many 500 hour pilots out there that have the skills and knowledge to get those jobs and do them safely. However, if they cannot go about acquiring that job in an honest fashion, that obviously means they are not trustworthy. If they are capable of lying about flight experience, what else might they be capable of lying about?

[Chitty777]

If they are capable of lying about flight experience, what else might they be capable of lying about?

 

This is a great point. In order to keep their job, would they be then willing to lie about an over-torque or over-temp that happened on the last flight? Where does it stop?

[Spike]

Of the 11 operators I’ve worked for, only one actually looked at my logbook….

 

In my opinion,

 

Over time, you can tell the level of experience from the guy sitting next to you regardless of what’s written in a book. I say this as both a former evaluator and applicant. This is where judgment and attitude come in as the real yardstick and, it’s extremely difficult to fake or pad these qualities……

 

Conversely, there are experienced pilots out here who are 100% honest, but only 80% competent, who somehow slip through the cracks……

 

In this business, reputation is everything. While a bad rep may not initially hinder your employment possibilities, it usually catches up with you causing you to bounce. That is, bounce again and again and again….. Don’t jeopardize your rep…..

[eagle5]

It says that someone might be able to BS his way into a job and do it most of the time. What it doesn't say is what will happen if that person is put under pressure, has to make a difficult decision or deal with an emergency. "Proving themselves" in the cockpit might end up with said cockpit firmly embedded in the ground. Who knows how many times it already has.

 

This can happen no matter how many hours a pilot has!

 

If you pass the interview process, and then pass their 135 training (like with say Tempsco, or Papillion), then it doesn't seem like having a fatter logbook really matters?

 

However, I guess you could argue that every pilot error accident perpitrated by a 1000+hr pilot was really the cause of a 500hr pilot who had fudged their logbook,...because well, real high time pilots never cause accidents!

 

I suppose integrity is a great thing to have, but when you go on month after month seeing other pilots get jobs just because they have a few more hours than you, or because they just happened to be in the right place at the right time and you weren't, well...integrity won't feed your family!

 

Just how desperate could you get?

[nightsta1ker]

This can happen no matter how many hours a pilot has!

 

If you pass the interview process, and then pass their 135 training (like with say Tempsco, or Papillion), then it doesn't seem like having a fatter logbook really matters?

 

However, I guess you could argue that every pilot error accident perpitrated by a 1000+hr pilot was really the cause of a 500hr pilot who had fudged their logbook,...because well, real high time pilots never cause accidents!

 

I suppose integrity is a great thing to have, but when you go on month after month seeing other pilots get jobs just because they have a few more hours than you, or because they just happened to be in the right place at the right time and you weren't, well...integrity won't feed your family!

 

Just how desperate could you get?

 

Let me ask you this: Are you just playing devil's advocate? Or do you really feel like it's not a big issue? Would you yourself consider fattening up your logbook with hours you didn't really fly so that you could get a job?

 

To me, honesty and integrity are everything. We all have to pay our dues. A guy that cheats on his logbook and gets a job he would not have been eligible for otherwise just screwed someone else who earned the time honestly.

[eagle5]

Let me ask you this: Are you just playing devil's advocate? Or do you really feel like it's not a big issue? Would you yourself consider fattening up your logbook with hours you didn't really fly so that you could get a job?

 

To me, honesty and integrity are everything. We all have to pay our dues. A guy that cheats on his logbook and gets a job he would not have been eligible for otherwise just screwed someone else who earned the time honestly.

 

I feel that if a 500hr pilot can fly just as good as a 1000hr pilot and can also demonstrate the same level of knowledge as that 1000hr pilot, then he shouldn't be passed over for a job just because of a number in his logbook! If you're not eligible for a job, you're not going to get it just because you fudged a higher number on your resume! You cannot BS your way into a flying job! You still have to prove your knowledge and skill, if you can do that, you deserve the job regardless of how fat your logbook is.

 

Some low time pilots get jobs flying turbines doing things that it takes most of us years to get simply because, "my father owns the company", or "the chief pilot and I are frat brothers", or "I just happened to be there when no higher time pilots were"! These pilots didn't have to "pay their dues" either, so are they just as bad?

 

How long would you be willing to sit on the unemployment line before you start to think, "maybe I should just fudge those last 20hrs to get that job?",...or face another year of unemployment?

 

Just because a pilot lies to get a job doesn't mean that they will lie about an overtorque. Just as there is no guaruntee that a pilot who didn't lie to get the job won't lie about it. The world isn't that "black and white"!

 

Have I gotten to the point where I would lie to get a job? Not yet,...but how long would it take?

[gary-mike]

I suppose integrity is a great thing to have, but when you go on month after month seeing other pilots get jobs just because they have a few more hours than you, or because they just happened to be in the right place at the right time and you weren't, well...integrity won't feed your family!

 

It has fed mine for the last 13 years.

[Pohi]

There is a huge difference between getting a job because of having connections and lying about experience to get a job. When a company lets someone work because they have connections but not the experience, the employer knows what they are getting themselves into and are willing to take the risk.

 

When it comes to falsifying a logbook, IMHO, it's pretty black and white. If you do, then you are a huge piece of crap. Regardless of whatever reasons you might justify to yourself.

 

On another note, the numbers on a resume is what gets a person an interview. From my limited experience, once a person has an interview, unless they do something really retarded, it's their job to loose.

[Flying Pig]

This can happen no matter how many hours a pilot has!

 

If you pass the interview process, and then pass their 135 training (like with say Tempsco, or Papillion), then it doesn't seem like having a fatter logbook really matters?

 

However, I guess you could argue that every pilot error accident perpitrated by a 1000+hr pilot was really the cause of a 500hr pilot who had fudged their logbook,...because well, real high time pilots never cause accidents!

 

I suppose integrity is a great thing to have, but when you go on month after month seeing other pilots get jobs just because they have a few more hours than you, or because they just happened to be in the right place at the right time and you weren't, well...integrity won't feed your family!

 

Just how desperate could you get?

 

Yeah, shoot. You dont get the job you want, when you want it, lie. Interesting. Ive put people in jail based on my word against theirs. I guess some people live in worlds where it matters, and others see it as a bridge to be crossed when tired of waiting.

[nightsta1ker]

Another thing to consider here, when talking about the difference between 940 hours and 1000, to meet a posted job requirement... From what I hear, these hour minimums can be hard or soft depending on how many applicants there are, how many pilots need to be hired, and what kind of impression you leave on the hiring party. I've never been in this position, but I'm just imagining here: If a 940 hour applicant has a better attitude and demonstrates more skill and knowledge than a 1000 hour applicant, I'm going to hire the 940 hour applicant despite the lack of 60 hours.

[chopper360]

Hi guys new to the forum, have read for years. I must say this topic is an interesting one. But I would like to put my two cents in. I am very close to getting a job but I have 1460 hours and not the 1500 they want. I still have my current pilot job so what I have been doing is as I fly my hours I keep updating that chief pilot. They told me when I have the 1500 hours the job is mine. I could have made my book look at little better and put that I had 1500 hour but I wouldnt feel right doing that. So I may have to wait another month or two to start that job but atleast I have a job at the end of a day.

[superstallion6113]

If you lie to get a job, it'd obvious, in my opinion, that you can't be trusted to do anything honestly, let alone flying. I wouldn't let you serve fries at Wendy's if I was the manager and you lied to me.