How do you log R22 time?

[nightsta1ker]

Oh noes!

 

HAHAHAHAHA!!

 

Glad we can all share some humor in the absurdity of the issue.

[pilot#476398]

The collective activated Hobbs stops ticking when you are in Autorotation (at least in a light R44, where the collective will be almost at the bottom stop). Now you lose about 0.1 for every 10 autos in the circuit! Oh noes!

 

I guess they figure at that point you're no longer flying,...you're falling!

[Beatle1967]

Low-time, inexperienced pilots typically engage in this kind of hair-splitting discussion. In the long run, it doesn't matter.

[C of G]

Low-time, inexperienced pilots typically engage in this kind of hair-splitting discussion. In the long run, it doesn't matter.

 

Welcome to the discussion. Which are you, low-time or inexperienced?

 

That's the only time it really matters, though. Paying for your ratings and making sure you actually meet the minimums and understand the regs.

[SBuzzkill]

Skids off the ground until engine is stopped.

[eagle5]

Low-time, inexperienced pilots typically engage in this kind of hair-splitting discussion. In the long run, it doesn't matter.

 

Spend 80k to become a professional pilot with 200hrs. Find out you need another 800hrs just to qualify for the opportunity to "apply" for a snowballs chance in hell for a job that MAY finally pay a "livable" wage. Now someone says you need to subtract a .1 from every R22 flight you've ever done because startup and shutdown don't count!

 

This stuff interests us inexperienced low-timers?,...no sh*t Sherlock!

[nightsta1ker]

Saying this topic is not relevant to pilots is like saying that Bournoulli's principal is not relevent to aerodynamics.

 

The way I see it, we have a conundrum. We have a regulation that clearly states what defines loggable flight time, and we have a wide variation of methods of tracking, and more importantly charging for, that flight time. So what is the hands down right thing to do? When were talking about helicopters, helicopter operations, and what the pilots are challenged with when the machine is turning, I think the regulations are plain stupid. But that's just my opinion. For those of you with "high time and long experience", you obviously have forgotten the time when all those tenths meant a lot more to you.

[Beatle1967]

The subtleties of how to log time has always been contentious. The general advice that was handed down to me is to always go with the industry/de facto standard. If in doubt, talk to the DPE you will using or the FSDO, because ultimately they will set the standard that you will be held to. FWIW All of the pilots, CFI's and DPE's I know accept Hobbs hours.

[Nearly Retired]

In airplanes, the FAA recognizes that the "recording tachometers" are not the *best* way of keeping track of maintenence/component time. In the FAA's view, they are "good enough." As someone mentioned, a recording tachometer is only accurate up at operating rpm, and not accurate at all at idle. If you pull the power back from normal cruise, the true accuracy will be lost. A "squat switch," or WOW (weight on wheels) switch is a more accurate representation of when the aircraft leaves the ground and when it returns. For tracking 100-hour inspections and engine/prop overhauls, the WOW is the best. But like I said, the industry standard in light planes is the recording tach. Airplanes that are used commercially will typically have a recording tach for maintenance and a Hobbsmeter for customer billing. Which is how flight schools do it.

 

In helicopters there is no standard. Some have a Hobbs that runs any time the engine is producing oil pressure. Some have a Hobbs hooked to the collective. Some helicopter have *two* Hobbs! Some helicopters have no Hobbs at all.

 

When I was with the FH1100 factory, the owner of the company used to brag all the time about how much lower the fuel consumption of our ship was compared to a Bell 206 with the same engine. We had a 206 with which we could make a side by side comparison. Eventually I realized that the Hobbsmeter in the FH1100 was hooked to the master switch (don't ask me how we discovered this, and I won't tell you we left the battery on in one ship and ran the Hobbs up). Therefore, on any given flight we were logging *more* flight time than a 206 with a so-called "collective" Hobbs. Well of course our fuel consumption figures were going to look better! If a 206 logs 1.0 skids-up to skids-down, and we log a 1.2 because that's how long the battery was on, and we both used 26 gallons of fuel...guess which ship has the lower apparent fuel burn?

 

We realized that the original Hiller design called for the "always running" Hobbs. That's what the factory installed and got approved. But such a setup is contrary to how the FAA defines "component flight time." Thus, we also knew that some FH1100 operators installed a *second* Hobbs hooked to the collective to track maintenance, and used the "stock" Hobbs to bill the customer.

 

So, like some people's Facebook relationship statuses, it's complicated.

 

I was having a discussion about this with some pilots yesterday (some of ours and some from another company). It was brought up that our local FSDO accepts "blade time" (RIM - rotors in motion time) as pilot flight time. One Inspector was quoted as saying, "If the blades are turning, you're flying!" (Obviously, I agree with his interpretation.) Which is fine until some idiot waves that letter from those two FAA bimbos in Washington D.C. in front of him and says, "SEE? You're wrong, nyah nyah nyah."

 

Like so many things with the FAA, there is little consistency or common sense here. This makes it tough for the new pilot who might face the possibility that his FSDO would reject some of his "flight time" as invalid. And hey, I sympathize- I was there once and I do remember.

 

But I also find it funny. So many helicopter pilots get so riled-up about this. I mean, you wouldn't believe the nasty, hate-filled comments I've gotten from other pilots who think I'm a complete and utter idiot for saying that RIM time is flight time. "You're not flying unless the skids are off the ground!" they say. But then they have to add, "...Uhhh, unless you're in a wheeled helicopter and you're taxiiing for takeoff...THEN you're flying!" Hah! So by this "reasoning" if you log "blade time" in your R-22 you're a lying, cheatin', low-life bastard who doesn't deserve to be a pilot...UNLESS you're in your Agusta 109 taxiing around in circles prior to takeoff, THEN it's okay to log flight time on the ground.

 

Yeahhhhhhhhh.

[eagle5]

As much as it sucks for us low-timers, I actually agree that flight time is "skids up to skids down" (and I'm not going to argue that a wheeled helicopter taxiing is flying,...'cause its not). However, as I've also said, time on the ground is still PIC time, because you still have duties and responsabilitis as a pilot.

 

So, should I add another colum in my book "PIC flight time" vs. "PIC total time",...probably not! I'll just stick with the hobbs.

 

If I were flying a 109, I wouldn't give a rats furry ass about flight time,...anymore!

Edited July 30, 2012 by eagle5

[Spike]

Older R22’s had the hobbs meter wired through an additional component which could be deactivated by simply pulling a circuit breaker. While it wasn’t necessarily a common practice, some would pull the circuit breaker to reduce the “billing” time allowing for another pattern or one more TDA. Therefore, over time, some machines out in the field could theoretically be operating with timed out components….

 

This business is full of people who lie, cheat and steal and they do so, on a daily basis to get ahead. That is, get ahead professionally and/or financially. It’s naïve to believe otherwise. For the new guys, get used to it….

 

It’s up to the individual to interpret the rules. Unfortunately, if the rules are interpreted incorrectly, then the consequences can be severe. However, if the misinterpretation goes undetected, then the consequences are basically nonexistent and why we have so many folks who lie, cheat and steal and get away with it….

 

Use the watch on your wrist to log pilot time. The machine has its own clock. Leave the internet definitions to those who believe they know better…..

[Bobsyouruncle]

Unless I'm misunderstanding this, skids up to skids down is not truly correct. She specifically says when the aircraft moves under its own power including taxiing and says when the aircraft comes to rest after landing. I take that to mean time stops when the aircraft is parked (comes to rest after landing), not just landed otherwise why not just say after it lands. So it would seem to me that any landings that are not intended for parking are still flight time, after all if we can log taxiing time we wouldn't just stop time every time we hit the brakes.

 

Since there is no Hobbs meter that can truly differentiate between a landing, and a landing for parking no meter can be correct, even the WOW switches.

 

This reg, like many others appears to be written with airplanes in mind and just figured close enough for helicopters. What surprises me is that manufacturers have not pushed for a universal method to log time.

 

As an extreme example when I was in Iraq once we were doing runups 3-6 hours long at 100% as part of a readiness level during missions. At first the time wasn't logged but after a few days we decided if we just spent 20 hours turning blades without having to do one second of maintenance than we were probably not doing the safe or the smart thing, so for those purposes we started logging runup time. I was a mechanic at the time and even though it made more work for me it just seemed like the responsible thing to do.

 

Helicopters seem to me to be subjected to forces very near that of flight profile when on runup (certainly more so than airplanes) and somebody should probably address a standard for tracking and even logging that time specific to helicopters one day.

[pilot#476398]

If I strap wings to my car and drive around, they will produce lift, but if its not enough to get the wheels off the ground, I'm not flying!

 

If a bird, on the ground, spreads its wings, but then just walks a few feet to pick up a french fry, he's not flying!

 

I took hangliding lessons once. On the first trip down the hill I didn't run fast enough for the wing to generate enough lift to get my feet off the ground. It did, however, generate enough lift to ease the weight on my sholders,...but I was NOT flying!

 

If you're on the ground, you're not flying! This is not a complicated issue!

[SBuzzkill]

So you stop logging time when you're sitting in a confined area and start a new clock when you take back off? Oops, gotta pull 2 minutes out there, and 3 more over here, and 1 minute over here, 3 more over there when I did that pinnacle...

[Nearly Retired]

If I strap wings to my car and drive around, they will produce lift, but if its not enough to get the wheels off the ground, I'm not flying!

 

(SNIP)

 

If you're on the ground, you're not flying! This is not a complicated issue!

 

Au contraire!

 

So it's not a complicated issue for you? Heh. Yeah well...except! Except that airplane pilots, once they move out of their parking spot and head for the runway (however long that is and however long it takes), they are FLYING. They are logging PILOT FLIGHT TIME. They are on the ground. (Wheeled helicopters too for that matter can do the same thing.)

 

Pilot#476398, in your first example, if the wings you attached to your car could produce enough lift to get it airborne and your intention was to go fly, then you most certainly *could* log PILOT FLIGHT TIME from the moment you put it in Drive and began to roll around the Walmark parking lot. Dems the rulz. Read 'em and weep.

 

...Once the aircraft moves under it's own power with the intention of flight, you can log pilot flight time: you're flying. So how is "skids-up to skids-down" analogous to an airplane taxiing out for takeoff? Answer: It aint. If airplane pilots can log flight time on the ground, why can't helicopter pilots?

 

And why do some helicopter pilots get all bent out of shape about this?

 

Quick story: I was leaving Vegas on an airliner one day. A friend called right before they told us to shut our cell phones off. "You're flight's delayed," he said. He was watching on some aviation website that monitors such things. I said no we're not, they're closing the door and we're fixing to back off the gate. And he goes, "Nope, you're delayed for an hour. Might as well go get something to eat." And I was, like, yeah right, WE'RE ON THE PLANE! I looked at my seat mate and laughingly told him what I'd heard.

 

So we back off, and just as we begin to taxi out the pilot comes on the p.a. and says in that typically deep voice, "Uhhhhhhh folks, uhhh from the flight deck here. Uhhhhhhhhhhh, there are some thunderstorms in the Dallas area, and uhhhhhhhhh we've just received an ATC delay. So uhhhhhhhhhhh we're gonna taxi down here to the end of the runway and shut one of the engines down and wait. Maybe it won't be as long as they're saying." My seat mate looked at me and said, "How did your friend know that?!"

 

And you know WHY the pilots did that instead of just waiting at the gate? Because once the wheels of that airliner started moving the pilots were logging flight time (and more importantly flight pay). They did NOT want to sit at the gate on their own dime.

 

Oh, and the delay was as long as my buddy said it would be. Plus, we entered a long hold out west of Dallas too. Those pilots up in the front were probably going, "Cha-CHING!"

[pilot#476398]

So you stop logging time when you're sitting in a confined area and start a new clock when you take back off? Oops, gotta pull 2 minutes out there, and 3 more over here, and 1 minute over here, 3 more over there when I did that pinnacle...

 

No, I do not stop the clock at that point, because I still have responsabilities as PIC, therefore I'm logging that time.

 

I agree with Eagle5 in that PIC time and "flight time" are not always the same! For example;

 

1. You're a cfi. A commercial student comes to you and says he wants you to fly with him because he needs to get the 50nm dual xc out of the way. Two hours later you both come back, and although you never once touched the controls, you log it as PIC time. Is it "flight time"? Of course not! How can you fly without touching the controls? It IS however, PIC time because as cfi you are the "acting" PIC, and hopefully also giving some verbal instruction along the way.

 

2. I just applied for an R44 tour job, but I'm no longer passenger current. My school has no R44s, but another local one does. They don't know me from Adam, so they're not about to let me take it solo (even for just three trips around the pattern), so one of their cfis tags along. I'm on the controls 100% of the flight, but he'll be logging PIC time as well (BUT ITS NOT FLIGHT TIME!), for the same reasons as #1.

 

3. This is my favorite one. You're taking pictures from a helicopter for boatpix. In fact you both are (you trade off depending on where the best angle is with relation to the Sun). You're both cfis, and you're both logging PIC time, even though there's no possible way you can be flying the helicopter while taking those pictures (they use hand held cameras)!

 

Airplanes and helicopters with wheels who are taxiing may be able to "log" PIC time, but they are not flying! It is impossible to be airborn while also touching the ground!

 

My logbook says "Type of Piloting Time", not "flight time! When I'm on the ground during startup and shutdown, or if I'm sitting there with the blades turning waiting to have a passenger loaded, I'm logging PIC time, because I still have responsabilities as the pilot, but its NOT "flight time"!

 

If an employer were to look at my logbook and say, "You've got a lot of R22 time, how much of it is flight time vs. startup and shutdown?" I would subtract .1 from every R22 flight I've done!,..but as far as I know, no one ever does that?

 

Everyone lumps PIC time and "flight time" together, and since the job posts usually say "minimum of 1000hrs PIC" and NOT "minimum 1000hrs flight time", I'm not too concerned about it.

Edited July 31, 2012 by pilot#476398

[iChris]

Billing time and logging time could be equal or not. Of course if a pilot in training is billed for a given amount of time, they almost automatically equate that to log able time.

 

Pilots should clearly understand the difference.

 

The definitions and system are what they are and personal attitudes or preference or ideas of fairness do not apply.

 

 

That's true, the systems are what they are..

 

The responds to Mr. Lloyd’s request for interpretation, as stated, flow from the definition found in section 1.1 of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations. The regulations in part define what the FAA assumes each pilot is knowledgeable of. Therefore it’s your responsibility to comply.

 

However, the FAA has no real interest, or time, in auditing your flight time records to find some small 10% error because you may have included .1 while on the ground during some flights. Unless you have some other outstanding offenses it’s not worth proving.

 

It’s your logbook and you have complete control. However you log your time, if question by the FAA, your answer should be that you log all flight-time per the meaning under FAR 1.1. That places the burden of proof back were it belongs, the FAA.

 

Most R22 students log what they paid for. If they paid for 1.2, they log 1.2. Hasn’t seemed to be a big problem in the real world.

 

It’s interesting how Robinson accounts for time-in-service on airframe and life-limited components on the R22. They include a correction factor for autorotation, run-up, or shutdown (See below).

 

 

FAR 1.1 - Flight time means:

Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;

 

FAR 1.1 - Time in service means:

With respect to maintenance time records, means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing.

 

Robinson R22 Maintenance Manual Section - 3.002 Time-In-Service Records

 

“It is the operator's responsibility to maintain accurate time-in-service records of the airframe and life-limited components. An hourmeter activated by engine oil pressure is standard equipment in the R22 helicopter and is an acceptable means of recording time in- service.”

 

“The approved overhaul intervals and the fatigue service lives listed in the Airworthiness Limitations Section are based on FAA Advisory Circular 20-95 which assume that 10.5 % of the operating time will be in autorotation, runup, or shutdown. Therefore, if an hourmeter activated by the collective control is used to record the time-in service, the values recorded must be multiplied by 1.12 when determining replacement times for life-limited components, engine and airframe overhaul periods, and other periodic inspection requirements.”

Edited July 31, 2012 by iChris

[C of G]

If you're on the ground, you're not flying! This is not a complicated issue!

 

That's overly simplistic and not true. What about toe-ins? Running landings, running take offs? Surface Taxiing? Class C External loads?(agreed that the aircraft itself is not in contact necessarily, but the load is)

 

Additional, several people mentioned PIC time. Is PIC time not a function of "Flight time"?

 

 

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

 

 

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

 

 

Additionally, check out

 

http://www.faa.gov/a...0/J.Johnson.rtf

 

An air carrier was fined significantly for not adhering to flight time definitions. Flight time may even be accrued when the engine(s) are off!

 

Whereas I agree it can be splitting hairs, it is important, as iChris says, that you know the answer to give when questioned about logging flight time. And to be able to wade through the nonsense your peers throw out that is based on emotion and personal bias rather than regulations.

Edited July 31, 2012 by C of G

[pilot#476398]

That's overly simplistic and not true. What about toe-ins? Running landings, running take offs? Surface Taxiing? Class C External loads?(agreed that the aircraft itself is not in contact necessarily, but the load is)

 

I have no idea what a "toe-in" is?

Running landings=as soon as you hit the ground you're no longer flying!

Running takeoff=as soon as your off the groung you're flying!

Surface taxi=you're on the ground, you're not flying!

External load=if the aircraft is off the ground by its own power, you're flying!

 

The FAA has is own idea of when you can log "flight time" while still in contact with the ground, and I have no problem with that! When you start the "flight" is up to you (airlines seem to tell us its "gate to gate"), that's fine, but you're still not "flying" until you're in the air under your own power!,...but hey, no one (i.e. employers/DPEs) really cares to differentiate!

 

Like I've said,...I just go with the hobbs! In the R22, some of that time is on the ground. In the R44, its skids up to skids down,...oh' well!

[pilot#476398]

I suppose the best way to settle this issue would be to change the Regs to make it more clear!

 

We could argue that the "flight" is the entire "planned event" and therefore "flight time" is all time aquired during that "event". This would then give us "flight time" as "start-up to shut-down" and everything in between while the engine is on and blades are turning,...basically what we get with the R22 hobbs!

 

...but "making things clear" is not a quality government institutions usually posses!

[C of G]

 

 

3. This is my favorite one. You're taking pictures from a helicopter for boatpix. In fact you both are (you trade off depending on where the best angle is with relation to the Sun). You're both cfis, and you're both logging PIC time, even though there's no possible way you can be flying the helicopter while taking those pictures (they use hand held cameras)!

 

 

My logbook says "Type of Piloting Time", not "flight time! When I'm on the ground during startup and shutdown, or if I'm sitting there with the blades turning waiting to have a passenger loaded, I'm logging PIC time, because I still have responsabilities as the pilot, but its NOT "flight time"!

 

 

Wow! That's adorable how you make up your own regs. I would seriously consider hitting the books again.

 

Just having a CFI doesn't make you PIC the whole time. If you are not providing instruction, you are not the PIC. You are not the SIC if it's not required by regs or design.

 

Second example of logging PIC on the ground with the rotors turning: How can you log PIC if you are not flying? Check the definition of PIC again.

 

I understand your desire to get those precious 10ths in your logbook, but at least understand the regs you are breaking when you do it. It's not your world. You don't have a say in the matter when it comes to definitions the FAA lays out. You are free to have your opinion on the matter, but recognize what it's worth.

 

I'm also confused by the idea you are pushing that if you're not on the controls, that you are not flying. How does it work with an autopilot? If you are solo in the aircraft, is no one flying?

[pilot#476398]

Wow! That's adorable how you make up your own regs. I would seriously consider hitting the books again.

 

Just having a CFI doesn't make you PIC the whole time. If you are not providing instruction, you are not the PIC. You are not the SIC if it's not required by regs or design.

 

Second example of logging PIC on the ground with the rotors turning: How can you log PIC if you are not flying? Check the definition of PIC again.

 

I understand your desire to get those precious 10ths in your logbook, but at least understand the regs you are breaking when you do it. It's not your world. You don't have a say in the matter when it comes to definitions the FAA lays out. You are free to have your opinion on the matter, but recognize what it's worth.

 

I'm also confused by the idea you are pushing that if you're not on the controls, that you are not flying. How does it work with an autopilot? If you are solo in the aircraft, is no one flying?

 

I'm not making up any regs. I knew a guy who flew with them, and that's how they do it,...I didn't say I agreed with it! Those examples are how many pilots log PIC time. On the ground, blades turning?,... every R22 pilot logs that as PIC

 

If the autopilot is on, its flying the aircraft, not you. You are just making sure its doing its job!

[C of G]

I'm not making up any regs. I knew a guy who flew with them, and that's how they do it,...I didn't say I agreed with it! Those examples are how many pilots log PIC time. On the ground, blades turning?,... every R22 pilot logs that as PIC

 

If the autopilot is on, its flying the aircraft, not you. You are just making sure its doing its job!

 

Yeah, it's how people log it, but it isn't correct. Show me where two CFI's can log PIC when doing commercial ops?

 

Just cause someone does something doesn't make it right. You ever fly within 500' of a cloud when more than 1200 agl and not SFVR? The helicopter doesn't fall out of the sky, but it is in conflict with the FARs. Same as what you're trying to advocate.

 

I'll go erase all that Autopilot flight time I have then since I wasn't flying.

[eagle5]

Yeah, it's how people log it, but it isn't correct. Show me where two CFI's can log PIC when doing commercial ops?

 

 

I'll go erase all that Autopilot flight time I have then since I wasn't flying.

 

He's talking about boatpix. I don't know how they justify it, but I hear they've been doing it for a very long time?

 

As to you being able to log flight time while the autopilot is flying the helicopter, I don't understand that either? Its like a joke someone made on the other similar thread about an airline pilot logging flight time while taking a crap?

[pilot#476398]

Yeah, it's how people log it, but it isn't correct. Show me where two CFI's can log PIC when doing commercial ops?

 

Just cause someone does something doesn't make it right. You ever fly within 500' of a cloud when more than 1200 agl and not SFVR? The helicopter doesn't fall out of the sky, but it is in conflict with the FARs. Same as what you're trying to advocate.

 

I'll go erase all that Autopilot flight time I have then since I wasn't flying.

 

I log flight time according to the hobbs, therefore my R22 time is engine on to engine off, but my R44 time is skids up to skids down! Which method is correct,...depends on who you're asking!

 

This is why what I'm advocating is that the FAA simply add a more clear definition for helicopter pilots,...didn't think that was too much to ask?