How do you log R22 time?

[brettjeepski]

Logging Flight time interpret.pdfHow do you log your flight time when and if you fly the Robinson R22?

 

Barry Lloyd in 2006 sent a letter to the attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel asking.

 

 

1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243( (2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?

 

2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify fora certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243( (2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?

 

3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?

 

 

Below is the link to the response and I also attached the PDF

http://www.faa.gov/a...loyd Interp.pdf

Edited July 29, 2012 by brettjeepski

[C of G]

Most log it incorrectly and often add their own reasoning, stating that if they are PIC until everyone disembarks, etc, that they log it all as flight time blah, blah, blaah.

 

But, it's very clear. When the aircraft moves (not a component like a rotorblade or a piston) with the intention of flight until it comes to rest, it's flight time. You can see it clearly in that letter and in several others.

 

BTW, that link doesn't work, but I've read the letter before.

[zippiesdrainage]

I know a lot of R22 pilots at a lot of flight schools are going to look at their engine-driven-hobbs and their log book and collectivly mumble "....aw damnit!"

[superstallion6113]

I know for fact my school bills us off the engine driven/HOBBS meter.

[Mikemv]

Superstal,

 

You know there is no regulation about billing time.

 

Billing time and logging time could be equal or not. Of course if a pilot in training is billed for a given amount of time, they almost automatically equate that to log able time.

 

Pilots should clearly understand the difference.

 

The definitions and system are what they are and personal attitudes or preference or ideas of fairness do not apply.

 

Mike

[superstallion6113]

Superstal,

 

You know there is no regulation about billing time.

 

Billing time and logging time could be equal or not. Of course if a pilot in training is billed for a given amount of time, they almost automatically equate that to log able time.

 

Pilots should clearly understand the difference.

 

The definitions and system are what they are and personal attitudes or preference or ideas of fairness do not apply.

 

Mike

 

I don't think it's unfair if that's what you though I meant. If the engine is running/rotors are turning it's costing them money for sure. Yes they log our flight time based off the same meter.

Edited July 29, 2012 by superstallion6113

[eagle5]

Well, here we go again!

 

Sitting on the ground may not be "flight time", but it certainly is PIC time! I have a hard time believing that a DPE during a checkride, or an employer during an interview, would make a stink about differentiating between logging time during start-up and shutdown or not!,...unless he's a real dick!

 

Just log what the hobbs says, and move on with your life!

[brettjeepski]

If the link does not work to download here is some of the text copied from the PDF. I had also attached it for downloading on my original post.

 

The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "[pilot time that commences when

an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft

comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a

helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking

place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing.

(Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with

wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight

time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.

 

It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could

not be logged as flight time.

 

 

The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.

 

This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the

Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards

Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your

convenience at (202) 267-3073 ..

Sincerely,

 

Assistant Chief Counsel

Regulations Division

 

I thought this was a very enlightening letter. I have always logged off the R22 hobbs but now I have read this...

 

Any employers out there? How do you look at R22 pilots that log off of Hobbs?

Or has any pilots ever applied for their 135 and had any issues with their R22 flight time?

[Pohi]

Damn. If the only way I can log flight time in a R22 is when I move it from the parking place by its own power, I am screwed.

 

I parked the ones I flew in the hangar. I landed the helicopter on a helipad, then pushed it to its parking spot in the hangar. Since I never ground taxi the R22 from inside the hangar, nor did I fly it out, according to the legal interpretation, I never could log any of that time.

[apiaguy]

Ok..this is a fun topic and great info, but...come on! This is ridiculous! Nobody will ever ask you HOW you logged your time...just log it!

 

I would like to see a list of flight schools who only sign logs of students for skids up to skids down time. I doubt there are any.

[nightsta1ker]

I haven't seen one yet.

[pilot#476398]

Skids up to skids down huh.

 

To all you students out there. Have your cfi start up the helicopter, so that when its ready to takeoff you can just jump in and fly! Also, after landing, have your cfi do the shutdown, while you get out and head back to the office. If you cannot log it, there's no need to pay all that money for it!,...and no more landing to the ground during practice, only to a hover!

 

In fact, our mechanic doesn't care about flight time. I think I'll have him do all my startups and shutdowns from now on! He can just call me on my cell when its warmed up!

[flyingbasti]

What I am wondering is this:

Why does this discussion seem to say that you only have this issue flying R-22 helicopters?

 

I've not heard of a helicopter that you simply sit in and start flying or land and it is immediatley shut-down.

 

In my opinion this is something that would concern every pilot of every helicopter (who is not past some crazy 20000 hours and is logging time).

Edited July 29, 2012 by flyingbasti

[brettjeepski]

Most helicopters have a hobbs that runs off the collective, so as soon as you pull pitch and begin flight it is counting the time. Some aircraft have a squat switch so that as soon as the skids leave the ground it turns the hobbs(I heard some Sikorsky helicopter has this) and some aircraft don't even have a hobbs meter so it is completely up to the pilot to log flight time, Some aircraft that fly in the Gulf do this.

 

The problem with the R22 is that it begins turning time when the engine is started, so all the time you are sitting there on the ground playing with the GPS and radios, blades turning you are counting flight time if you log it this way. SO in the R22 why not just do it like all other industries that I know of that when the helicopter has started flight by either lifting skids into air or if you have wheels and start to taxi, Note the time as you begin to pull pitch and then when you land at the end of your flight.

 

Pohi it doesn't say anything about pulling it out of the hanger so flight would start as soon as you flew off the helipad. You aren't flying it in and out of the hanger so of course this wouldn't be flight time and when you move it to the heli pad that is your new parking spot.

 

Damn. If the only way I can log flight time in a R22 is when I move it from the parking place by its own power, I am screwed.

 

I parked the ones I flew in the hangar. I landed the helicopter on a helipad, then pushed it to its parking spot in the hangar. Since I never ground taxi the R22 from inside the hangar, nor did I fly it out, according to the legal interpretation, I never could log any of that time.

 

It doesn't say anything about having the instructor start it up. This is about when to log the flight time. Legal counsel says you are not supposed to log it when you are sitting in the ground warming up or shutting down. SO just simply note the time when you start flying. As far as the mechanic that is completly up to the company and the manufactor. I know the Robinson helicopters if you don't use the hobbs you have to time your flight time by some number in the maintenance manual and then use that to know when your service intervals are. You can check out the maintenance manuals on Robinsonheli.com website

Skids up to skids down huh.

 

To all you students out there. Have your cfi start up the helicopter, so that when its ready to takeoff you can just jump in and fly! Also, after landing, have your cfi do the shutdown, while you get out and head back to the office. If you cannot log it, there's no need to pay all that money for it!,...and no more landing to the ground during practice, only to a hover!

 

In fact, our mechanic doesn't care about flight time. I think I'll have him do all my startups and shutdowns from now on! He can just call me on my cell when its warmed up!

 

The reason I focused on the R22 because it is one of the helicopters that everyone logs flight time starting and shutting down. On some of your beginning flights in the R22 as instructor you might spend a .2 or .3 just going through the start up process or waiting for the slower student to get the GPS all ready. Hopefully it doesn't take that long.

 

What I am wondering is this:

Why does this discussion seem to say that you only have this issue flying R-22 helicopters?

 

I've not heard of a helicopter that you simply sit in and start flying or land and it is immediatley shut-down.

 

In my opinion this is something that would concern every pilot of every helicopter (who is not past some crazy 20000 hours and is logging time).

 

I am curious if any employers who are on these forums care how you logged your time in the R22 and have any pilots out there that are flying Part 135 have run into any problems with this?

Edited July 29, 2012 by brettjeepski

[Nearly Retired]

Heh. "Component flight time" is measured in different ways. If the R-22 uses the engine Hobbs to keep track of component flight time, and that meter runs as soon as the engine is started, then operators are cheating themselves because "component flight time* actually *is* skids-up to skids-down and all those extra tenths get added to the total time of the components. Glad I'm not paying the maintenance bills!

 

If R-22 pilots were to start logging skids-up to skids-down, then their "pilot flight time" would most likely be LESS than the total time on the ship. Very unusual! Normally (e.g. in airplanes) it is the other way 'round: pilot flight time historically is "something more" than ACTT.

 

This was never a problem in the "good old days" before the R-22 was invented, when most flight school ships didn't have Hobbsmeters. You logged your takeoff time and your landing time, and everything in between was flight time. Thus, component flight time equaled pilot flight time. Now on a given flight there's a .1 or .2 difference and people are having major heart attacks and hissy fits about it.

 

Helicopter pilots are weird.

 

I say...I still say...if the WINGS of the aircraft are moving, then the "aircraft" can be considered to be moving. If those dumb chicks in the FAA's legal counsel office say otherwise, and they did (they're probably blondes anyway), screw 'em. They obviously don't know nothing about helicopters. For if they did they would know that an aircraft without wings is merely a funny looking car. Or in the case of a skid-equipped helicopter, without rotors it is an interesting lawn ornament. It is the WINGS that make something an aircraft. The engine and prop don't even make it an aircraft; hell, an airboat has those things and airboats don't fly.

 

And so, hey, if you anal retentive, neurotic, idiotic pilots want to keep another piece of paper in the cockpit and diligently keep track of every takeoff and every landing...noting every time you touch down during training, or alternatively if you simply want to DEDUCT a tenth or two from your Hobbs flight time...the time from the meter that the MANUFACTURER installed and got approved to keep track of flight time, then go right ahead!

 

 

So. Friggin. Silly.

[Pohi]

The helicopters I fly do not have have a Hobbs. We just charge the customer $45 per gallon of fuel. As far as flight time goes, since I don't have a watch, the way I record flight time is when my batteries go dead in my headset I'll put 30 hours in my logbook.

[aeroscout]

The helicopters I fly do not have have a Hobbs. We just charge the customer $45 per gallon of fuel. As far as flight time goes, since I don't have a watch, the way I record flight time is when my batteries go dead in my headset I'll put 30 hours in my logbook.

 

That is actually quite creative. How long do batteries in an aircraft's flashlight last ? That's got to be a year's worth of flight time just right there.

[nightsta1ker]

The problem with all this is obviously variations in the hobbs meters. Which leads to issues with record keeping. Tracking component hours and flight time is done off the hobbs meter in aircraft that have them. It just is. It always has been for as long as I have been flying. And the problem of logging flight and component time based on skids up and skids down is that if the aircraft DOES have a hobbs, and the logged component hours DON'T match what the hobbs says, someone at some point is going to notice and start asking questions. The hobbs meter has become the standard tool for recording "flight" time. Even if it technically is not accurate. I can only imagine how fun this argument would be in court if I started logging component time like I am technically supposed to, but some FAA maintenance inspector started an investigation because the maintenance logs did not match up with the aircraft hobbs....

 

There obviously needs to be some clearer guidelines.

 

Or... we all just need to put our noses back down to the grindstone and forget about it! I'm done spinning my wheels about it. The system has been working fine for years, who am I to go screw with it...

[Guest pokey]

Just about all airplanes have 2 hobbs meters: (some have 3)

1) engine oil pressure actuated meter---which is what you pay for when you rent the plane

2) recording tachometer--which is what the maintenance is done by

3) squat switch---when the aircraft leaves the ground---i guess this is to please the FAA?

now: #1... if i gonna pay $$ for an hour? i wanna log an hour !

#2,,,,, if i pull throttle back & cruise way under the recording tach's calibration? i may be able to fly for an hour and 1/4 or more---great for maintenance standpoint !

#3,,,,,,i feel like i gettin "jipped"

 

Now to meet the FAA requirement of when airplane moves under its own power?---as soon as i start engine, i let it roll fwd a 1/2 inch,,,,,voilla !!! everyone happy

 

I've never seen a helicopter with a recording tach, but Hughes 269s use an oil pressure actuated switch on the M/R transmission----in my opinion?, this meets the FAA requirement of the aircraft moving under it's own power,,,,you show me a helicopter that you have to pedal to get the M/R moving/rotating & i bet the registered owner is fred flintstone.

[pilot#476398]

This problem has a simple solution (if it really is a problem!). Make the hobbs in the R22 like the R44!

[Guest pokey]

This problem has a simple solution (if it really is a problem!). Make the hobbs in the R22 like the R44!

 

now THAT is the best solution i heard in looong time !! Put 44 hobbs in your 22 & log 44 time !!

G R E A T idea ! ! !

[nightsta1ker]

Glad we got that settled. Now all we have to do is march our collective arses down to Torrence and tell Frankie to change his design.

[pilot#476398]

now THAT is the best solution i heard in looong time !! Put 44 hobbs in your 22 & log 44 time !!

G R E A T idea ! ! !

 

[pilot#476398]

Glad we got that settled. Now all we have to do is march our collective arses down to Torrence and tell Frankie to change his design.

 

...and how many times have they changed the blades?

[lelebebbel]

This problem has a simple solution (if it really is a problem!). Make the hobbs in the R22 like the R44!

 

The collective activated Hobbs stops ticking when you are in Autorotation (at least in a light R44, where the collective will be almost at the bottom stop). Now you lose about 0.1 for every 10 autos in the circuit! Oh noes!