Future of OH-58 program

[wopilot]

We still need plenty of boat warrants. I can't imagine former 58 guys doing that though. They'd be stopping every 10 mins to look around.

This is awesome, I remember people getting threatened they would become boat warrants if they don't straighten up!!

 

Plenty of UAV's to "fly" out there now, too....

[Lindsey]

I'll believe it when aircraft selection day rolls around and there are no 58s on the whiteboard. Until then I shall barely suppress my mild hysteria bubbling beneath the surface.

[Joe_P148]

You get to fly it in in primary, instruments and Basic skills, that's all the B206 hours I need.

[Rob1237051]

I would be a boat warrant in a heartbeat.

[Optamix]

I start BOLC Tuesday, I asked the battalion Commander about it during our in brief today, he said something along the lines of "There are lots of ideas floating around about the future of the airframe but nothing is definite yet." He said he had asked the same question earlier today but no one is giving definite answers.

[UH60L-IP]

 

Come on, what other aircraft out there is so cool where you can fly doors off, nap of the earth, shoot bad guys with an M4 out the window and rack up more flight hours than anyone else.. Not to mention you get to be in scouts so you get to wear a Stetson haha. You really do get to be a flying cowboy.

 

The UH-60. In country we flew doors off. Nap of the earth used to be the standard and will be again in a different threat environment. We keep our M4s up front for a reason (though the scouts definitely do more shooting), and I'm pretty sure I flew more hours in the Blackhawk than any scout in our task force during the same year. And the Stetson is a downside in my mind as I simply do not like people pointing and laughing at me behind my back.

 

Any more questions?

 

I start BOLC Tuesday, I asked the battalion Commander about it during our in brief today, he said something along the lines of "There are lots of ideas floating around about the future of the airframe but nothing is definite yet." He said he had asked the same question earlier today but no one is giving definite answers.

 

A battalion commander would never be forthright with students about this. When you hear words like "lots of ideas" and "nothing is definite yet" coming from a battalion commander it may be directly translated to mean "I have no intention of sharing this information with anyone of your ilk."

[Optamix]

A battalion commander would never be forthright with students about this. When you hear words like "lots of ideas" and "nothing is definite yet" coming from a battalion commander it may be directly translated to mean "I have no intention of sharing this information with anyone of your ilk."

That's very much what it felt like.

[akscott60]

So how many rockets do you shoot?

 

 

:-P

[UH60L-IP]

So how many rockets do you shoot?

 

 

:-P

 

None, thank goodness.

 

But it is my understanding that the MH-60-DAP bird makes an awesome weapons platform.

 

I'm actually a Kiowa fan, but just not for me.

[akscott60]

Im just poking at ya. I have heard the same about DAPS.

[redpatcher]

Sooo.. What is this boat thing yall speak of? Is that a term of endearment for Chinooks?

[Lindsey]

Sooo.. What is this boat thing yall speak of? Is that a term of endearment for Chinooks?

 

http://www.army.mil/article/72469/

 

The Army's got more boats than the Navy. Ain't that mindblowing.

 

EDIT:

Also -

http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/prerequ/WO880A.shtml

http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/prerequ/WO881A.shtml

[redpatcher]

 

http://www.army.mil/article/72469/

 

The Army's got more boats than the Navy. Ain't that mindblowing.

 

EDIT:

Also -

http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/prerequ/WO880A.shtml

http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/prerequ/WO881A.shtml

 

Woah... Nope.. I'm not leaving the Marine Corps to get away from Logistics Ships.. to go to Logistics ships...

[akscott60]

Sooo.. What is this boat thing yall speak of? Is that a term of endearment for Chinooks?

Haha no. Things that float.

[redpatcher]

Haha no. Things that float.

Well now I feel dumb.. Considering Boat Warrant is essentially what I do right now in the Marines..lol

[Joe_P148]

I think you guys are putting the cart before the horse or however that saying goes.

 

You need to pass wocs, primary, instruments, bcs and then aircraft selection.

 

worry about it when you come to that intersection in you life

[JustAPilot]

It sure seemed like KWs were the CAS weapon of choice when I was in Afghanistan. I witnessed a pair of 58s expend more ordnance over an 8 hr period in Op Strong Eagle than an entire F-16 squadron does in a month! I could feel .50 cal and rockets vibrating my butt 2,000 ft above them. Almost made me wish that I went scout...almost.

 

I was one of the PIC's that day. Unfair element. Watched the first MRAP get hit by an IED when they pushed forward into the mara wara. Flew 10hrs. Fired 2500 rds .50cal myself and over 20 rockets. Sister ship fired over 80 rockets. Total combined enemy KIA between air/ground forces was 150. That was a large operation. I think there were 12+ rotary aircraft overhead, but only 2 (scouts) were getting any action

 

Who dropped ice cream for your guys on the ridge? I DID.

 

Egos aside, the scout mission is more than just recon and surveillance. The meat and potatos of the entire mission is developing the situation. There is something to be said about flying low and fast and maneuvering to discover what the enemy action will be. There is such a thing as deterrance and deception. Will the enemy fight back? Will the enemy scatter? Will the wave as I approach and shoot at me when I turn my back?

 

Can UAV and 64 sensors see what kind of shoes potential fighters are wearing? Can they determine that a person with a leather jacket and a gold watch with slicked back hair doesn't belong in the Pech Valley? Do they know that enemy fighters often squat over their PKM with a blanket over themselves until aircraft pass theM? Do UAV's or 64's see the DsHK underneath a tarp that happened to lift in the rotor wash of a 58 flying by? Can UAV's provide troops on the ground the 15-30 seconds of breathing room to manuever rapidly through a danger area, suppressing the enemy just long enough for troops to make cover?

 

There is more to recce than just looking through a soda straw and heat sensing systems. Kiowa Pilots know when a vehicle is out of place. Kiowa Pilots know that 15 goats don't need 5 goat herders and conversely a goat herd without a herder is dangerous as well. Kiowa Pilots know that "farmers" wearing nike running shoes are not farmers.

 

Kiowa pilots are in the fight with the ground commander. We are able to conduct emergency evac for wounded ground troops, we can conduct speed balls, ice cream drops, ordnance drops. We can light up an LZ during red illum for PEDRO when guys on the ground are literally dying without medical aid. We can find the easier way down the mountain when troops have been stranded on a hill top for a week. We can suppress, we can accurately engage targets with 50 cal and rockets, or hellfires. We work seemlessly with ground forces, and we can have fires down within a minute or less of ground forces taking fire. Just give us a distance and direction and we'll mark, veryify and engage rapidly.

 

There is more to recon than just staring through a soda straw. The FACT is that the ground commanders WILL SUFFER when the scouts go away. Sure the troops on the ground will adapt, but I believe they won't have the same freedom of maneuver or have the same timely and accurate information to base their decisions on.

 

Sad days ahead.

[Jester2138]

 

There is more to recon than just staring through a soda straw. The FACT is that the ground commanders WILL SUFFER when the scouts go away. Sure the troops on the ground will adapt, but I believe they won't have the same freedom of maneuver or have the same timely and accurate information to base their decisions on.

 

Sad days ahead.

 

I'm not even in yet so don't take me too seriously, but, in your opinion, if it's so obvious how dramatically helpful Kiowa's are as part of the 4 airframe Army mission, why would the leadership be moving to phase them out with no replacement?

[PhrogGuy]

 

I'm not even in yet so don't take me too seriously, but, in your opinion, if it's so obvious how dramatically helpful Kiowa's are as part of the 4 airframe Army mission, why would the leadership be moving to phase them out with no replacement?

This is just my two cents but I think that this is low hanging fruit. DOD is talking about cutting into benefits and pay (well more like slowing the growth). Leadership sees that they can do (not excel at) the mission with 3 Airframes vice 4. Voila, no more upkeep/upgrade costs, no more pipeline costs, maintenance logistics etc etc etc. As a short term cost-saving measure, it may make some sense. . . to them anyway.

[Velocity173]

 

I was one of the PIC's that day. Unfair element. Watched the first MRAP get hit by an IED when they pushed forward into the mara wara. Flew 10hrs. Fired 2500 rds .50cal myself and over 20 rockets. Sister ship fired over 80 rockets. Total combined enemy KIA between air/ground forces was 150. That was a large operation. I think there were 12+ rotary aircraft overhead, but only 2 (scouts) were getting any action

 

Who dropped ice cream for your guys on the ridge? I DID.

 

Egos aside, the scout mission is more than just recon and surveillance. The meat and potatos of the entire mission is developing the situation. There is something to be said about flying low and fast and maneuvering to discover what the enemy action will be. There is such a thing as deterrance and deception. Will the enemy fight back? Will the enemy scatter? Will the wave as I approach and shoot at me when I turn my back?

 

Can UAV and 64 sensors see what kind of shoes potential fighters are wearing? Can they determine that a person with a leather jacket and a gold watch with slicked back hair doesn't belong in the Pech Valley? Do they know that enemy fighters often squat over their PKM with a blanket over themselves until aircraft pass theM? Do UAV's or 64's see the DsHK underneath a tarp that happened to lift in the rotor wash of a 58 flying by? Can UAV's provide troops on the ground the 15-30 seconds of breathing room to manuever rapidly through a danger area, suppressing the enemy just long enough for troops to make cover?

 

There is more to recce than just looking through a soda straw and heat sensing systems. Kiowa Pilots know when a vehicle is out of place. Kiowa Pilots know that 15 goats don't need 5 goat herders and conversely a goat herd without a herder is dangerous as well. Kiowa Pilots know that "farmers" wearing nike running shoes are not farmers.

 

Kiowa pilots are in the fight with the ground commander. We are able to conduct emergency evac for wounded ground troops, we can conduct speed balls, ice cream drops, ordnance drops. We can light up an LZ during red illum for PEDRO when guys on the ground are literally dying without medical aid. We can find the easier way down the mountain when troops have been stranded on a hill top for a week. We can suppress, we can accurately engage targets with 50 cal and rockets, or hellfires. We work seemlessly with ground forces, and we can have fires down within a minute or less of ground forces taking fire. Just give us a distance and direction and we'll mark, veryify and engage rapidly.

 

There is more to recon than just staring through a soda straw. The FACT is that the ground commanders WILL SUFFER when the scouts go away. Sure the troops on the ground will adapt, but I believe they won't have the same freedom of maneuver or have the same timely and accurate information to base their decisions on.

 

Sad days ahead.

Yep, I was flying C2 overhead doing my best to get in your way. COL in the back kept saying "Can we get lower?"

 

It was one of those ops where I thought nothing was going to happen and we'd go home empty handed. Then it was like they stumbled upon a hornet's nest. Heard you guys start it off around sunrise with SAFIRE calls. Then ground element with sniper calls. Then it escalated into IEDs, arty called in and Bone rolling in for a MK-82 drop that rocked our aircraft. Radio going nuts. Almost had a midair with an Apache. Good times.

 

I flew 10.5 hrs D/NG. I was a bit tired when I got back but it was nice to be in an op that actually amounted to something.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Velocity173

[Ja88Af]

So if the Kiowa is going to go away (whenever that may be), I wonder if that means the Apache Guardian will see a significant increase in flight hours for perfecting the roles of two platforms into one.

[akscott60]

Damn JustAPilot. That was quite a write up.

[Velocity173]

Damn JustAPilot. That was quite a write up.

Yeah but he gave away all my secrets. Now I'm going to trade in my Nikes for loafers when I go herd my goats.

[58Dguy]

I'm sad to hear what some who don't really understand or know our mission ie USMC poster Hotdogs. Ignorance is a large reason of the probability that our airframe is on the chopping block. I don't mean that in a negative or derogitory way towards anyone but it's meant in the actual definition of the word. Unfortunately we keep our glory and story in-house and beyond our walls we don't flash our success. The gratification and comfort of knowing we make a difference comes when an infantry squad walks 3 miles across Kandahar just to look for anyone associated with a call sign that made a difference for them. Maybe we should have worn our flashy ego pants all these years because I believe now it's too late.

 

I want to address a few of the comments I've read through this thread.Comments like lack of armor, low VNE, loss rates, simple fire control systems and 'not the first choice for recon' are a bit off track.

 

1.Where is the lack of armor? We have armor in all the required areas and unless we arm the rotor system or tail boom we're covered with engine armor, side armor, seat armor and floor armor. There really isn't anywhere else that it would benifit unless you ran armor sheets down the avionic doors but weight is always a concern with aircraft.

 

2. OH-58D loss rates due seem high at first glance. Lets look at strictly combat hours flown versus other airframes, how many of those combat hours were in the presence of the armed enemy and what the accidents are caused by. Without getting into unpostable data, I can tell you the loss rates that resulted directly from enemy fire are extremely low compared to pilot error. I would guess pilot error contributes to over 75% of actual combat loss. I can think of one specifically that was a result of enemy fire and unfortunately armor that may have protected that aircraft was not installed. Yes, there have been 58's shot down. I'm friends with many of those pilots who still have the stories to tell but most of my brothers on the Fiddler's Green got there from wire strikes or other related pilot errors. I'm not at all faulting those guys because I've been close many times while either getting target fixated or narrowly missing wires. There is a risk that we all accept at times to fly at the altitudes we fly, conduct the recon we do and execute the ground commanders intent to the fullest.

 

3.Low VNE isn't a factor with how we conduct business. All VNE gives you is a less travel time from point A to B. Our maintenance goal while conducting rotor smoothing was to ensure every bird could cruise if needed at 95-100 knots comfortably. It's not speed that causes the enemy to miss, it's manueverability and piloting and there is no other regular Army aircraft that has the tight manueverability that the 58 does. The 64 may be able to do barrel rolls but it can't turn near as quick or sharp as the 58. Ther e is something that's said for getting from point A to B quickly, but if there is an area we can't cover due to flight time we would simply put two teams up. We always have the aircraft availability and maintenance keeping the 58 away from a mission is a rarity.

 

4. Hellfire missile- simple control fire systems...No need to elaborate on that. The .50 cal and rocket systems are supression weapons or can be used as direct fire weapons. The accuracy of the fires depends on the command climate regarding gunnery and shooting skills. I can tell you our climate was if you were a non-accurate shooter, you flew left seat or recon zone away from probable enemy contact. It took us 3 months to build the credibility and trust from the ground force that our fires could be significantly less than the 'reds' in the JFIRE. We don't have a 30mm so I'm not oblivious to that weapon system. I believe it's the best system the Army has. BUT I will say for immediately supressing the enemy and protecting the guy on the ground, nobody can release fire as fast as the 58. The 64 would have to already have their sensor on the target area, have good SA (which I will discuss) and be prepared to fire. This is something we do best but by teaming us with a 64 it multiplies the effectiveness which I will discuss shortly.

 

5. The 'first choice for recon' totally depends on the target or recon objective. Regardless if we are the first choice, we are always called to investigate after the soda straw platform reports. There is no sensor or platform that can replace the human eye. Another poster said it best regarding patterns of life in a battle space and recon so all I will say is without 3-4 times additional sensors like the balloons, constant monitoring and significant training to the sensor operators, that level of detailed recon can't be duplicated. It will take years to develop other assetts to conduct the quality of observation we provide which is second nature to us.

 

I have been following this possible decision for months and frequently get updates from sources close to the issue at higher levels. I participated in the AoA in 2009, which was the first questions being asked if we really needed the scout or can a UAV do the job. I know all the pilots that were a part of the study. Congress asked for the research to be done when it was considering dumping tons of money into UAV programs. Fortunately at that time pitting us against UAV pilots conducting duplicate missions was a joke. They just couldn't compare to what we did and how we operated. The result of the AoA was the full spectrum CAB where 58's were to fly with a UAV like a team and the ability of us to view UAV feeds in our cockpit...and later the hope with L2MUM 4 that we could possibly control them from the cockpit. Silly idea right? I believe this plan along with temporary upgrades was a way to move forward as the Army worked on a plan to either replace or completely update or tired airframes. Which somewhat takes us to where we are now.

 

The wars have worn heavy on our airframes and they are in desperate need of structrual and technical makeovers. The 58 community has always polished turds into gold and made any mission happen with whatever we had at our disposal no matter how old or it's capabilities. With the current financial situaion, the 2-4 Billion it would cost to completely rebuild our fleet into the F model and the wear-out date of the F model not far enough out to completely justify the cost it easily brings up the question if we should keep them or not. In order for us to continue to safely and effectively fly the airframe the Army would have to spend some money. Why not save the money now, restructure the Army with current advanced airframes and set it's sights on the future of the scout attack platform. It is my opinion...and just that, my opinion...that the Army is banking on the future of the Sikorsky Raider. It meets all the desires of the future Army, more than exceeds the posted requirements and is the aircraft of the future. Not aircraft of the future like the Commanche was but the real forseeable future to include meeting the manufacturing cost budget. If you haven't done any research on the Army requirements regarding the scout replacement, take a look at what the requirements are and the stats of the Raider. The Army wants a helicopter that can cruise at over 200 kts..along with weapons systems and carry troops, the writing is on the wall. Investigate this website and watch the videos, hell I've bought this thing already and I won't even be flying it: http://raider.sikorsky.com/

 

I'm sad to see this aircraft go and completely understand the value to the guys who rely on us most, but like anything we do in the Army, we adapt and overcome our mountains.

[Hotdogs]

I'm sad to hear what some who don't really understand or know our mission ie USMC poster Hotdogs. Ignorance is a large reason of the probability that our airframe is on the chopping block. I don't mean that in a negative or derogitory way towards anyone but it's meant in the actual definition of the word. Unfortunately we keep our glory and story in-house and beyond our walls we don't flash our success. The gratification and comfort of knowing we make a difference comes when an infantry squad walks 3 miles across Kandahar just to look for anyone associated with a call sign that made a difference for them. Maybe we should have worn our flashy ego pants all these years because I believe now it's too late.

 

 

I'll try to make this short but there are some issues with your comments - understandably defensive about the future of the Kiowa.

 

-I honestly believe that the human eye is rapidly being replaced, and it is all matter of time. Is it better? Time will tell. That's my opinion. UAS proliferation is off the charts in the last 10 years.

 

-Your accuracy is training dependent but will always be inferior to aircraft that were design to shoot. Not a civilian aircraft adapted for military use. Hueys have the same aerodynamic issues.

 

-Along the lines of accuracy - JFIRE REDs aren't meant to be shot within, nor a standard to train, but simply a measure of what implies danger close. That's doctrinal for all CAS players, including FW. Your community shouldn't have to build trust, it should be already established.

 

-As far getting fires downrange, we don't have many issues getting rounds downrange fast with our sensors, and ours are inferior to the Apache, so why they'd have issues is beyond my knowledge. Again you just stated yourself that training by sensor operator is the biggest issue.

 

What do the average airframe flight hours look like on the Kiowa?