Helicopter Upgrade

[Wally]

 

Lots of surplus parts available and you can stick it in "restricted" category to make things even cheaper....

 

Hmmm. Doesn't restricted category come with limitations, such as:

 

§ 91.313 Restricted category civil aircraft: Operating limitations.

Link to an amendment published at 83 FR 30281, June 27, 2018.

(a) No person may operate a restricted category civil aircraft -

(1) For other than the special purpose for which it is certificated; or

(2) In an operation other than one necessary to accomplish the work activity directly associated with that special purpose.

( For the purpose of paragraph (a) of this section, operating a restricted category civil aircraft to provide flight crewmember training in a special purpose operation for which the aircraft is certificated is considered to be an operation for that special purpose.

© No person may operate a restricted category civil aircraft carrying persons or property for compensation or hire. For the purposes of this paragraph, a special purpose operation involving the carriage of persons or material necessary to accomplish that operation, such as crop dusting, seeding, spraying, and banner towing (including the carrying of required persons or material to the location of that operation), and operation for the purpose of providing flight crewmember training in a special purpose operation, are not considered to be the carriage of persons or property for compensation or hire.

(d) No person may be carried on a restricted category civil aircraft unless that person -

(1) Is a flight crewmember;

(2) Is a flight crewmember trainee;

(3) Performs an essential function in connection with a special purpose operation for which the aircraft is certificated; or

(4) Is necessary to accomplish the work activity directly associated with that special purpose.

(e) Except when operating in accordance with the terms and conditions of a certificate of waiver or special operating limitations issued by the Administrator, no person may operate a restricted category civil aircraft within the United States -

(1) Over a densely populated area;

(2) In a congested airway; or

(3) Near a busy airport where passenger transport operations are conducted.

(f) This section does not apply to nonpassenger-carrying civil rotorcraft external-load operations conducted under part 133 of this chapter.

(g) No person may operate a small restricted-category civil airplane manufactured after July 18, 1978, unless an approved shoulder harness or restraint system is installed for each front seat. The shoulder harness or restraint system installation at each flightcrew station must permit the flightcrew member, when seated and with the safety belt and shoulder harness fastened or the restraint system engaged, to perform all functions necessary for flight operation. For purposes of this paragraph -

(1) The date of manufacture of an airplane is the date the inspection acceptance records reflect that the airplane is complete and meets the FAA-approved type design data; and

(2) A front seat is a seat located at a flight crewmember station or any seat located alongside such a seat.

[Docket No. 18334, 54 FR 34308, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Docket FAA-2015-1621, Amdt. 91-346, 81 FR 96700, Dec. 30, 2016]

[helonorth]

What Wally said. Can't do much with a restricted category personal helicopter.

 

Conkin and deDecker says the hourly variable cost* for a 480B to be $396/hr.

 

206B is $491/hr.

 

206L1 is $614/hr.

 

BO105 CBS $1,023/hr

 

BO105 S-A3 $1,215/hr

 

 

For me, I'd find a knowledgeable broker to help. You do not want to do this on your own.

 

I'd start here:

 

https://www.helicopterbuyer.com/contact

 

*Variable costs include fuel, airframe maintenance, labor and parts, engine restoration and miscellaneous costs.

Edited December 20, 2018 by helonorth

[cherminator]

and a Robinson R44 Raven II is $257/hr

[Discap]

The Robinson is only that cheap of you fly 200 hr/yr. I will be at 100 so double those costs.

[RagMan]

Your boss wants to spend $500,000 on a machine to fly less than 10 hours a month on it?

 

Take a car. Less expensive.

[takefootoff]

Your boss wants to spend $500,000 on a machine to fly less than 10 hours a month on it?

 

Take a car. Less expensive.

No fun

[Discap]

Ragman it is difficult to see the country from 500 feet in a car

[Thedude]

Your boss wants to spend $500,000 on a machine to fly less than 10 hours a month on it?

 

Take a car. Less expensive.

My guess is that when someone can afford a $500k helicopter toy they can also afford a $150k car toy for on the ground fun.

[helonorth]

My guess is that when someone can afford a $500k helicopter toy they can also afford a $150k car toy for on the ground fun.

 

 

He didn't say he couldn't afford it. He said it was less expensive. Either way, a helicopter is a colossal waste of money for all but the very rich. The novelty will wear off before you get your first $50,000 bill. Have fun with the insurance, too.

[adam32]

 

 

Hmmm. Doesn't restricted category come with limitations, such as:

 

 

 

A little bit, besides the "densely populated" restriction it doesn't make much difference for a private guy flying around under 61/91.

 

He's not doing 135 work or anything.

 

Hell, an experimental 105 or Allouette II would even be fine to putt around the country in.

 

I would NEVER buy a Standard category helicopter to use joyriding.

[Discap]

Ok I am willing to learn something. What are the advantages of a Restricted Catagory for a toy? The life limits and maintenence don’t change. Surely the parts for a 105 must be competitive price wise the ones for the space shuttle.

 

I am fairly familiar with Experimental Catagory. If you move to Experimental Exibition (OH 58 for example) you are limited to flying to airshows or just within a few miles of home. So for my purposes this won’t work.

 

If I remember correctly in Restricted Catagory only crew members are allowed on board. So that kills that idea.

[helonorth]

 

A little bit, besides the "densely populated" restriction it doesn't make much difference for a private guy flying around under 61/91.

 

He's not doing 135 work or anything.

 

Hell, an experimental 105 or Allouette II would even be fine to putt around the country in.

 

I would NEVER buy a Standard category helicopter to use joyriding.

 

 

That works but only if want to fly around by yourself.

[adam32]

 

 

That works but only if want to fly around by yourself.

 

He can most definitely still fly his wife with him.

[adam32]

 

 

 

Ok I am willing to learn something. What are the advantages of a Restricted Catagory for a toy? The life limits and maintenence don’t change. Surely the parts for a 105 must be competitive price wise the ones for the space shuttle.

 

I am fairly familiar with Experimental Catagory. If you move to Experimental Exibition (OH 58 for example) you are limited to flying to airshows or just within a few miles of home. So for my purposes this won’t work.

 

If I remember correctly in Restricted Catagory only crew members are allowed on board. So that kills that idea.

 

Life limits and maintenance can and do change depending on the TC of the aircraft.

 

Your wife isn't a crew member? You sure?

Edited December 25, 2018 by adam32

[helonorth]

 

He can most definitely still fly his wife with him.

 

 

Okay. How?

[MLH]

The Robinson is only that cheap of you fly 200 hr/yr. I will be at 100 so double those costs.

 

I've owned two R44's. The last one was flown purely for hobby 50 - 75 hrs/yr. Hourly cost not including the hangar was $500. The first was a leaseback and a money maker.

[adam32]

 

 

Okay. How?

 

How can anyone prove she's not an essential crew member?

[helonorth]

 

How can anyone prove she's not an essential crew member?

 

 

It would be the other way around. You would have to prove she was an essential crew member. And you couldn't.

[Eric Hunt]

Easy. You are looking for a missing black dog, and need her to sit on the left/right/front seat to help look. Essential crew. Try to prove otherwise.

[adam32]

 

 

It would be the other way around. You would have to prove she was an essential crew member. And you couldn't.

 

She's reading the chart and watching the GPS.

 

Easy.

 

And NO ONE would ever even question it anyway.

[Wally]

 

She's reading the chart and watching the GPS.

 

Easy.

 

And NO ONE would ever even question it anyway.

 

What about the insurance company if and when something goes sideways? The ability to drop half a million on a toy implies a very worthwhile target for a lawsuit.

[iChris]

I appreciate the input. $500,000 is the budget. My problem with the R44 is that the operating expenses get astronomical if it is just a toy. I will fly no more than 100 hrs/yr. I have heard that they are comfortable.

 

You're right about the R44. If you own it for a full 12 year cycle, you need to fly it a couple hundred hours per year to keep the hourly cost from skyrocketing.

 

Cherminator I am discovering exactly what you state. I keep coming back to the Enstrom. The only calendar limited parts are that TT straps (identical to the one on the 206). A transmission exchange is $21,000, t/r gearbox $7000. Blades are lesss than $50,000 for 3 (and on condition) vs $125,000 for the 206. The list goes on.

 

If you’re intent is only private use, non-compensation or hire, under Part 91, you can fly the R44 past 12 years. We cover this topic back in 2011. The only calendar limited parts, under § 91, are the main and tail rotor blades.

 

To continue operation after the 12yr. mark you must compile with The Instructions for Continued Airworthiness section in the R44, maintenance manual, titled Airworthiness Limitations, which is segregated and clearly distinguishable from the rest of the document.

 

The must do items are covered in that section of the manuals. Moreover, it depends on who said, “you must”. Did Lycoming say you must? Did Robinson Helicopters say you must? Or did the FAA say you must. The FAA’s “Must” is the one that counts.

 

The R44 maintenance manual Airworthiness Limitations are in Section 3 on page 3.9. Page 3.9 is FAA approved and sets forth each mandatory (must do) replacement times, structural inspection intervals, and related structural inspections. Things like calendar engine overhaul periods were not included in those airworthiness limitations under § 91. However, engine ADs still apply.

 

As long as the owner complies with section 3 (page 3.9) in the R44 maintenance manual, the aircraft and engine can be maintained under FAR 91.409a, 43.15c, and Appendix D to Part 43 in an airworthy condition.

 

To fully understand you may need to read the following posts and the supporting documentation.

 

R22 Airworthiness past 12 years. (Posted 15 October 2011)

MacMillan- (2011) Legal Interpretation(PDF)

R44 Airworthiness Limitations Life-Limited Components

FAA Order 8620.2A - Applicability and Enforcement of Manufacturer’s Data

 

Specific Part 91 operations for compensation or hire are governed by the inspection requirements found in § 91.409, which do not require you to comply with the manufacturer's recommended maintenances.

 

Part 135 operations for compensation or hire are governed by the inspection requirements found in §135.421, which requires you comply with the manufacturer's recommended maintenance.

 

CLICK PHOTO TO ENLARGE

 

Lycoming Engine Hour & Calendar Period TBO

Edited December 29, 2018 by iChris

[Discap]

IChris thanks for the analysis.

 

If you have a minute would you opine on my thread on TT straps

 

Bill

[adam32]

 

What about the insurance company if and when something goes sideways? The ability to drop half a million on a toy implies a very worthwhile target for a lawsuit.

Self insure like most private owners do.

 

And besides, they would have to prove what an essential crew member is...and as far as I know, there is not an interpretation as of yet.

 

The insurance companies will royally SCREW you over no matter what category the helicopter is registered in.

Edited December 28, 2018 by adam32

[500E]

We have a customer who flies with a ground handler