Entrance Fees ???

[FLHooker]

Mechanic... Just on a personal level... WOW!!! are you getting hosed or what? I'm not in charge of our mechanics, but even at the entry level in the FW community we are hiring fresh off the street at not much less than that... Sidenote: our last hire was a Army trainer guy, with tons of experience working with hydralics, etc.... but still. WOW!

 

 

CHAD

[mechanic]

Mechanic... Just on a personal level... WOW!!! are you getting hosed or what? I'm not in charge of our mechanics, but even at the entry level in the FW community we are hiring fresh off the street at not much less than that... Sidenote: our last hire was a Army trainer guy, with tons of experience working with hydralics, etc.... but still. WOW!

 

 

CHAD

 

FLHooker,

Ya, my thoughts exactly! But out here in the country its hard to find high paying jobs. I only have a 6 minute drive to work, at the current gas prices it keeps my gas bill about 25 bucks per week. The company also buys lunch on Fridays and breakfast on Sat. Taxes are cheaper here too compared to larger cities.

 

One of our helpers went to UTI in Houston, paid $28k for the mechanic school. He was working for a JD Construction Dealer while in school, was making $12.50 as an apprentice. After he graduated they bumped him to $16.50 hr. My dealer only thought he was worth $6.50 hr while he was in High School. His dad is a mechanic and taught him alot prior to going to tech school. We know our dealer is getting to ALL of us. I am trying to get my finances in order to open my own gig, hopefully soon. I guess I shoulda kept working on fire apparatus....but not many of those jobs around.

 

Also been trying to get on with the railroad in a locomotive shop, pays pretty good but the closest shop is over a 2 hour drive so I would have to move to a higher cost of living area, which kinda defeats the reasoning of taking a higher paying job in a higher cost of living area imho....Not to mention dealing with sitting in traffic everyday.

 

Oh, well, decisions decisions....

[67november]

hey mech, ya know what I've gone thru for nearly a year in my job search. THIS is for everone out there, you must not cave to these companies who wish to pay nothing more than minimum wage. as you are out interviewing for a position that you have a solid back ground in you need to be sure to let these companies know they only get what they pay for. good experience means better productivity with less rework and unhappy customers. you are better than what they're asking for and they need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[jehh]

Spierman,

Would you please call my employer and explain this to them! LOL......They won't listen to any of us in the shop.

 

Of course they don't... Then again, I find that employees generally don't listen to all the bills employers have to pay, so that street goes both ways.

 

$70hr shop rate, top mech $17.50 hr I am just under $15.80 plus bonuses w/15 years with the company and 20 yrs total experience, military mechanic school, too.

 

Hmm, I'd say you're underpaid, just based on experience alone.

[mechanic]

Of course they don't... Then again, I find that employees generally don't listen to all the bills employers have to pay, so that street goes both ways.

 

 

 

Hmm, I'd say you're underpaid, just based on experience alone.

 

Um,

I have owned and been in a Family business. My wifes dad owns his own propane company, so I have seen those $60K dollar checks for storage fuel purchases not counting his fleet expenses. I understand it costs the company to operate.

 

The highest paid mechanic at my current job has 30 years with John Deere and is making $17.50 hr. We are talking a Corp business not mom and pop. They have 4 dealers in 4 cities. Yes it is expensive to run a business. The best year I had there I made them close to 300K parts and service labor, while they paid me 26K for that year and bitched the whole time about not making enough.

 

I am the lead tech for Commercial/Consumer/Utility equipment at my dealer. They want me to do alot of the PR work ie.. walkin/phones/and parts dept at times if they don't have the knowledge to handle the customers problem they are quick to hand them off to me. It doesn't make the company money so they gripe about me doing that, it is a double edged sword on that deal.

 

I like my job and dealing with most of the customer base we have, but the owner and my boss can be a real big pain at times. It takes a threat of leaving most of the time to calm the waters there and it should not be that way. Just had to do it again this week. They become different people after you just say no!

 

Just saying I am not the average employee.

[r22butters]

Well isn't this a fun little topic someone dragged up from the bowels of five years ago!

 

 

...I predict the industry is going to be more selective in getting quality people versus hours in the near future....

 

Well here we are four years later and,...nope,...its still all about hours (and even more of them at that!).

[Pohi]

Aah yes, but perhaps having higher hour requirements is the company being more selective. As in, 1000 hours doesn't guarantee a job, it's now 1500 hours, and still competing with 500 other people.

 

The "magic" 1000 hours doesn't mean much anymore other than an extra digit in the logbook. I had over 2k before I got my first post CFI job. And that was still mostly due to sheer determination and refusing to give up.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Pohi

[Spike]

It’s never been about the hours….. It’s always been, and always will be, about the “package”…. In fact, the recent posts about low quality applicants prove flight hours in a logbook guarantee nada……

 

It’s about the package, plain and simple.. This is not my opinion….. It-is-what-it-is and, as it should be…

[helonorth]

I would say it's definitely about the hours. What's the "package"? If you don't have the hours, nobody will want to check out your "package"!

[Pohi]

I would say it's definitely about the hours. What's the "package"? If you don't have the hours, nobody will want to check out your "package"!

 

I guess it is all how you define "about the hours"

 

That term to me means that if something is "all about the hours" then nothing matters (skill, knowledge, type experience. Etc) and if you have the # of hours than you have a job. Therefore, only the number in the book is what lands a job. From what I see, there is a lot more that is involved than total time. The minimum requirement has gone up, but that's a factor of supply and demand.

 

I acknowledge that minimum hours has gone up, but do not believe it is anything close to "all about the hours"

 

Raising the minimum hours just helps eliminate a lot of people. I wouldn't want to spend all day looking at guys packages either.

 

[r22butters]

I would say it's definitely about the hours. What's the "package"? If you don't have the hours, nobody will want to check out your "package"!

 

Exactly!

 

Hours don't mean sh*t, (the recent complaints about the quality of 1000hr CFII applicants prove that)! but if you don't have whatever the latest "magic number" is nobody cares what kind of pilot you are!

 

Employers need to remove the hour requirements from their jobs, and look at the "real" pilot!, but we all know that will never happen!

[Pohi]

There are probably some really good doctors and dentists in the 3rd world operating without degrees too, but I'm ok with the 12 years of school and experience it takes for somebody to get their doctorate here.

 

Heck, there are probably guys just starting med school that would do a great job.

[r22butters]

Wow, I didn’t realize my piloting skills were comparable to those of a doctor?! I guess I should hang my certificate on the wall!

 

I think a more realistic comparison would be with truck drivers,…I mean let’s face it, the only "real ability" it takes to become a pilot, is the ability to come up with large amounts of cash! Becoming a doctor,…well that takes a little more intelligence. Maybe I don’t think very highly of my ability to pilot a helicopter, but given my experience with job hunting, I guess I’ve just been given the impression that these skills aren’t that valuable?

 

Anyway, truckers usually have to spend at least 1 year driving "long-haul" until they have what most employers want, and I’m fine with that (having just obtained my CDL). They also start by driving real commercial runs with an experienced driver sitting next to them (kind of like the old argument of putting newbie pilots into the SIC seats!), but we all know that will never happen!

 

Come to think of it, maybe truck driving isn’t a good comparison, since it actually has an entry-level path!

[Helipilot PTK]

Wow, I didn’t realize my piloting skills were comparable to those of a doctor?! I guess I should hang my certificate on the wall!

 

I think a more realistic comparison would be with truck drivers,…I mean let’s face it, the only "real ability" it takes to become a pilot, is the ability to come up with large amounts of cash! Becoming a doctor,…well that takes a little more intelligence. Maybe I don’t think very highly of my ability to pilot a helicopter, but given my experience with job hunting, I guess I’ve just been given the impression that these skills aren’t that valuable?

 

Anyway, truckers usually have to spend at least 1 year driving "long-haul" until they have what most employers want, and I’m fine with that (having just obtained my CDL). They also start by driving real commercial runs with an experienced driver sitting next to them (kind of like the old argument of putting newbie pilots into the SIC seats!), but we all know that will never happen!

 

Come to think of it, maybe truck driving isn’t a good comparison, since it actually has an entry-level path!

 

Yes the majority of people can indeed learn to fly a helicopter if given the necessary training, money and time. But a good "stick" ability does not necessarily make you a good pilot. ADM, Judgment (such as whether to fly or not), knowledge of aircraft, regulations, EPs, flight characteristics Etc, and also passion in aviation all come to mind when thinking of what makes a good pilot a expert pilot. I know you are much more knowledgable in aviation then I am, but just look at all of my accomplishment you made and how lucky you are to have come this far in this amazing industry.

 

Just my .02 cents

[Pohi]

Wow, I didn’t realize my piloting skills were comparable to those of a doctor?! I guess I should hang my certificate on the wall!

 

 

I think a more realistic comparison would be with truck drivers,…I mean let’s face it, the only "real ability" it takes to become a pilot, is the ability to come up with large amounts of cash! Becoming a doctor,…well that takes a little more intelligence. Maybe I don’t think very highly of my ability to pilot a helicopter, but given my experience with job hunting, I guess I’ve just been given the impression that these skills aren’t that valuable?

 

Anyway, truckers usually have to spend at least 1 year driving "long-haul" until they have what most employers want, and I’m fine with that (having just obtained my CDL). They also start by driving real commercial runs with an experienced driver sitting next to them (kind of like the old argument of putting newbie pilots into the SIC seats!), but we all know that will never happen!

 

Come to think of it, maybe truck driving isn’t a good comparison, since it actually has an entry-level path!

 

Haha, well, I wasn't really comparing a pilot to a doctor as far as the job itself :-)

 

Bad example perhaps, I am referring to the journey. The schooling, then years of crappy intern, and finally and then finally a good job.

 

Edited February 27, 2012 by Pohi

[BH206L3]

I learned to fly Airplanes in the Mid 1970's and transitioned to helicopters in 1982. CFI and CFII for both. I even have a MEI too. I look at what you have to pay these days to just duplicate my current certificates, I don't think I would do it. To be in the hole for 60 to 100K and then spend the next decade doing jobs nobody else wants at a rate of pay most would laugh at. That takes a lot of will power and the willingness to live on the edge. When I learned to fly the country was having some bad economic problems, just like today some 38 years later. Thats life. If I had to do all over again, I would have taken the helicopter transition money about 28K worth and bought Micro Soft Stock with it, but that is 20/20 hindsight. Now, I am working thru a medical issue at 57, I will get my medical back, its just going to take about six months or so. I been looking, there is slim pickings out there. I think I will go back to fixed wing flying in rural alaska. I have a standing offer, once I get my medical back. Its about money, not love of helicopters or any of that other junk we tell ourselves to justify to ourselves we made the right choice to become pilots. I will tell you that the one big mistake I made in my career as a pilot, was when I had some real down time in the late 1970's and early 1980's I should have gone and gotten my A+P. That would have been very valuable down the road in the kind of flying I like to do. And yea I did the CDL and the over the road bs too. the grass is no greener over that sewer either. I commercial fished and shot predators and trapped for pelts to pay for flying lessons. I know a lot about cold wet winters. Mom wanted me to be a Dentist. Mom's are always right.

[aeroscout]

Dentistry as a profession has the highest suicide rate. How exciting would it be to incessantly have to look forward every day to spending most of your waking hours working in someone's mouth ?

[apiaguy]

I've never regretted the A&P... best education I ever received in college.

Edited February 27, 2012 by apiaguy

[Spike]

It’s been said a billion times before, flight hours in the logbook gets you the interview…. It’s all of the other deeming qualities (the package) that get you the job. If were solely biased on the “hours” then the hiring process would be a lot simpler…. Just hire the guy with the most hours... IN MY OPINION, this is not the case nor is it specific to this industry… The best most qualified person usually rises to the occasion. Those who don’t, don’t.

 

Plus, qualifying to interview is one thing. Actually getting the job is another. Keeping the job is completely different ball of wax no matter how many hours are scribbled in a book. Not my opinion but, in this day and age of “at will” working conditions, makes it a fact…..

[r22butters]

It’s been said a billion times before, flight hours in the logbook gets you the interview…. It’s all of the other deeming qualities (the package) that get you the job. If were solely biased on the “hours” then the hiring process would be a lot simpler…. Just hire the guy with the most hours... IN MY OPINION, this is not the case nor is it specific to this industry… The best most qualified person usually rises to the occasion. Those who don’t, don’t.

 

Plus, qualifying to interview is one thing. Actually getting the job is another. Keeping the job is completely different ball of wax no matter how many hours are scribbled in a book. Not my opinion but, in this day and age of “at will” working conditions, makes it a fact…..

 

I don't believe any of us (low-timers) is actually stating that hours alone will get you the job. Its the, "hours is what gets you the interview" that's the problem! (baring the, "right time, right place, right person thing).

 

I think employers should not base who they interview on "how fat your logbook is"! They're leaving out a lot of great pilots, who WOULD make great employees, and (it seems recently) getting a lot of undesireables whom they have to weed out in other ways.

 

I'm tired of hearing that operators are dissappointed with the lack of basic knowledge, and/or professional attitude they are getting with some of the recent 1000hr CFIIs they are interviewing, when I'm right here! I know what I'm supposed to know, (and a little more), I have a good work ethic, and (believe it or not) a very professional attitude (when I'm not bitching here on-line )! I'm also not stupid enough to show up to an interview in jeans and a t-shirt (I can't believe those stories)! Yet I cannot even get a courtesy e-mail response, simply because my logbook isn't fat enough!

 

If you're only going to LOOK at a pilot based on an irrelevant number at the top of his resume, then you have no right to complain about the quality (or lack there of) of that pilot!

 

 

Its like Shrek said, "They judge me before they even get to know me.".

Edited February 27, 2012 by r22butters

[Pohi]

I see what you are saying butters, another issue with the # of hours is insurance driven. It's cheaper to insure somebody with higher hours. This increases the profit for the company.

 

Same thing with auto insurance. There are probably tons of safe 16-20 year old drivers, but statistically they have the most accidents, therefore rates are higher. When you get to be 24(?) the rates drop.

 

Unfortunately sometimes the big companies are driven by factors besides just pilot ability. From what I understand, if a tour company is part of the TOPS program, the best pilot in the world could walk in with 900 hours and not be eligible for the job due to the not having the right number of hours. Regardless of how much the chief pilot wants them.

 

Small companies a person can go in and talk, prove their worth, and get a job with lower hours. The big ones, from what I have seen, are not run by the chief pilot, they are run by a board of directors or a CEO. Those people see nothing but the bottom line on profit, and couldn't care less about getting to know the pilots. They are just tools the company uses to make money.

 

So.... I feel your pain, but I can also see why companies do not want, or can't take the time to interview every person with a commercial pilot certificate that applies for a job.

 

I do think, on the other hand, that it would be really easy for a automated response to be set up to let applicants know they were not chosen. Out of the 50 or so jobs I applied for, I only got 2 responses back. Even though I didn't get a interview, I was greatful for at least an email.

[Spike]

I don't believe any of us (low-timers) is actually stating that hours alone will get you the job. Its the, "hours is what gets you the interview" that's the problem! (baring the, "right time, right place, right person thing).

 

I think employers should not base who they interview on "how fat your logbook is"! They're leaving out a lot of great pilots, who WOULD make great employees, and (it seems recently) getting a lot of undesireables whom they have to weed out in other ways.

 

I'm tired of hearing that operators are dissappointed with the lack of basic knowledge, and/or professional attitude they are getting with some of the recent 1000hr CFIIs they are interviewing, when I'm right here! I know what I'm supposed to know, (and a little more), I have a good work ethic, and (believe it or not) a very professional attitude (when I'm not bitching here on-line )! I'm also not stupid enough to show up to an interview in jeans and a t-shirt (I can't believe those stories)! Yet I cannot even get a courtesy e-mail response, simply because my logbook isn't fat enough!

 

If you're only going to LOOK at a pilot based on an irrelevant number at the top of his resume, then you have no right to complain about the quality (or lack there of) of that pilot!

 

 

Its like Shrek said, "They judge me before they even get to know me.".

 

You know what you need to do to move forward as it has been stated, many, many times.... It's up to you to choose a path... You can tread water, sink or swim. Either way, it's up to you....

 

This usually would go without saying but it appears it needs to be stated again. This was cut and pasted from another site. Mind you, this is not based on my opinion, however, couldn't have said it better myself……

 

1.Be humble everywhere you go....no one likes a bragger. Let your skill and actions speak for you, not so much your mouth.

 

2. Always learn from the mistakes of others and always be willing to admit when you make a mistake and learn from it. Nobody likes a hardhead know-it-all.

 

3. Never stop going to school or seeking continuing education. Keep striving for every rating...every seminar....more college.....recurrent training. It is all about development in both your career and personal life. Some guys have 30 years of experience, but have lived the same year 30 times. Keep striving for more.

 

4. Project a positive attitude wherever you go. I should make this #1 on this list. Ask any employer...attitude is at the top of everyone's list. I would rather work with a person that has a positive attitude and still has a few things to learn than a person that really knows everything but their attitude stinks. Bad attitudes are infectious and can tear up an operation. This single attribute WILL get you further along in this business that any other.

 

5. Work hard and always give a little more than expected.

 

6. Be honest with yourself and everyone around you. If you screw up and think you had a hot start...admit it. Do not lie about anything....if you do it will come around and bite your butt and word will be out that you are a liar. Having a reputation for being an honest guy that has made a mistake will not keep you from getting a job. Having a reputation of being a LIAR will keep you from getting a job.

 

7. Network , network , network.

 

8. DO NOT BURN BRIDGES....unless it is unavoidable. This is a very small industry and everyone talks....ESPECIALLY the Directors of Operations. They have an unwritten code regarding these things. A good Chief Pilot once said to me, the guy whose toes you are stepping on today, may be the guy whose butt you are kissing tomorrow. Sad but so true!

 

9. Always, always remember...YOUR career is built upon YOUR reputation. In most cases, how you are to be perceived in this business rests on your shoulders. The piloting aspect is not what causes most problems for pilots. That part is easy for most of us. The problems usually come when the pilot has to speak or interact with coworkers or supervisors. All I can say is this (from a man standpoint)....when presented with a situation....think with your BRAINS and not your BALLS first, AND THEN speak. You ever hear the phrase..."don't cut off your nose to spite your face?" Most of us have, but take ego + type A + pride + testosterone - a few brain cells and that phrase gets erased from memory and something real stupid happens. BOTTOM LINE: No matter where you go in this business, you must learn, understand, master, and play the GAME!

 

10. SEEK out opportunities and when they do present themselves, JUMP on them with both feet and do not look back.

 

11. Never forget where you came from OR those that saw something in you and gave you that big "CHANCE". Trust me; many big chances WILL come along. You are going to need and get help from many along the way. Just DON'T forget it and repay them by doing a good job and helping others along the way when you get the chance.

 

12. Find out what type of work you want to do and who you think you want to work for. THEN find out everything that you can about the company. THEN find out who are the people that make the decisions. THEN go and meet them and learn a little about their operation. THEN make your decision on whether it is the right place for you and that you can accept what they are offering. THEN show them your eagerness to work for them and try and convince them that you are the best guy for the job. THEN once you get that job, LIVE by concepts 1 thru 11.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Spike

[r22butters]

You know what you need to do to move forward as it has been stated, many, many times.... It's up to you to choose a path... You can tread water, sink or swim. Either way, it's up to you....

 

This usually would go without saying but it appears it needs to be stated again. This was cut and pasted from another site. Mind you, this is not based on my opinion, however, couldn't have said it better myself……

 

1.Be humble everywhere you go....no one likes a bragger. Let your skill and actions speak for you, not so much your mouth.

 

2. Always learn from the mistakes of others and always be willing to admit when you make a mistake and learn from it. Nobody likes a hardhead know-it-all.

 

3. Never stop going to school or seeking continuing education. Keep striving for every rating...every seminar....more college.....recurrent training. It is all about development in both your career and personal life. Some guys have 30 years of experience, but have lived the same year 30 times. Keep striving for more.

 

4. Project a positive attitude wherever you go. I should make this #1 on this list. Ask any employer...attitude is at the top of everyone's list. I would rather work with a person that has a positive attitude and still has a few things to learn than a person that really knows everything but their attitude stinks. Bad attitudes are infectious and can tear up an operation. This single attribute WILL get you further along in this business that any other.

 

5. Work hard and always give a little more than expected.

 

6. Be honest with yourself and everyone around you. If you screw up and think you had a hot start...admit it. Do not lie about anything....if you do it will come around and bite your butt and word will be out that you are a liar. Having a reputation for being an honest guy that has made a mistake will not keep you from getting a job. Having a reputation of being a LIAR will keep you from getting a job.

 

7. Network , network , network.

 

8. DO NOT BURN BRIDGES....unless it is unavoidable. This is a very small industry and everyone talks....ESPECIALLY the Directors of Operations. They have an unwritten code regarding these things. A good Chief Pilot once said to me, the guy whose toes you are stepping on today, may be the guy whose butt you are kissing tomorrow. Sad but so true!

 

9. Always, always remember...YOUR career is built upon YOUR reputation. In most cases, how you are to be perceived in this business rests on your shoulders. The piloting aspect is not what causes most problems for pilots. That part is easy for most of us. The problems usually come when the pilot has to speak or interact with coworkers or supervisors. All I can say is this (from a man standpoint)....when presented with a situation....think with your BRAINS and not your BALLS first, AND THEN speak. You ever hear the phrase..."don't cut off your nose to spite your face?" Most of us have, but take ego + type A + pride + testosterone - a few brain cells and that phrase gets erased from memory and something real stupid happens. BOTTOM LINE: No matter where you go in this business, you must learn, understand, master, and play the GAME!

 

10. SEEK out opportunities and when they do present themselves, JUMP on them with both feet and do not look back.

 

11. Never forget where you came from OR those that saw something in you and gave you that big "CHANCE". Trust me; many big chances WILL come along. You are going to need and get help from many along the way. Just DON'T forget it and repay them by doing a good job and helping others along the way when you get the chance.

 

12. Find out what type of work you want to do and who you think you want to work for. THEN find out everything that you can about the company. THEN find out who are the people that make the decisions. THEN go and meet them and learn a little about their operation. THEN make your decision on whether it is the right place for you and that you can accept what they are offering. THEN show them your eagerness to work for them and try and convince them that you are the best guy for the job. THEN once you get that job, LIVE by concepts 1 thru 11.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I agree that these points are a good assessment as to how one should go about landing a job in this industry!,...however...

 

I don't think they really fit as a reponse to my post, which is merely a comment (albeit a frustrated one) that employers should not use flight hours as a way to find who they want to interview!

 

As for myself (as I have stated many times before) the "enterance fees" to this industry are more than I am willing to pay!

[Spike]

employers should not use flight hours as a way to find who they want to interview!

 

As for myself (as I have stated many times before) the "enterance fees" to this industry are more than I am willing to pay!

 

Then how should they [employers] initially gauge applicants?

 

"I'm tired of hearing that operators are dissappointed with the lack of basic knowledge, and/or professional attitude they are getting with some of the recent 1000hr CFIIs they are interviewing, when I'm right here!"

 

"I know what I'm supposed to know, (and a little more), I have a good work ethic, and (believe it or not) a very professional attitude (when I'm not bitching here on-line )! I'm also not stupid enough to show up to an interview in jeans and a t-shirt (I can't believe those stories)! Yet I cannot even get a courtesy e-mail response, simply because my logbook isn't fat enough!"

 

With comments like this, one can assume you are willing to pay. However, the amount you wish to pay is up to you.......

[r22butters]

Then how should they [employers] initially gauge applicants?

 

That's a good question.

 

Fedex used to conduct application sessions, where a bunch of applicants would show up, fill out an application, then EVERYONE would get a short interview. The people they liked were called back for a further look.

 

Something like that might work?