HELICOLT Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) [ Edited July 17, 2011 by HELICOLT 1 Quote
helonorth Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) No "macho" attitude. Been flying for 15 years (only six for a living). I know a little bit about what's going on. I've lost a few friends, and every one of them was doing something they were not supposed to be doing. I have had no scary incidents, and that is because I've seen what the cowboy attitude will eventually get you: grief. As I said, following the rules makes my job so much easier. I wonder why you think I don't consider the worst case scenario every time I fly? I don't think anything I've said would imply that. I felt comfortable at 200 hours and I still do. If I didn't feel comfortable, I wouldn't (probably shouldn't) be doing this. I would be curious to know what your experience level is, Maximus, as you seem to define comfortable as "dangerous". It is possible to be comfortable and safe (yes, even at 200 hours) at the same time, which you are oddly unaware of. I would say the word you are probably looking for is "complacency", which I also do all I can to keep in check. Edited July 17, 2011 by helonorth 4 Quote
Falko Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 helonorth is correct. Flying helicopters is not rocket science. Everybody can learn how to fly a helicopter, but not everybody should fly helicopters due to some peoples bad attitude. Flying tours is "just" staright and level flying with normal takeoff nornal landing....something you learned during your PPL training, so somebody with a com or cfii can do that just fine. People complain about their income all the time. But as most of you guys noticed, they pay in aviation isn't that great. Unless your job puts you somewhere remote or the risk is high/ higher. The higher pay comes also with a negative site effect. More money = many days away from home. if that's what you want and you don't care not spending time with you kids and wife, go for it if you rather be home every day, accept the lower paying jobs. cfi jobs are mostly low income positions but I have also seen places that pay up to 50$/hr. I am in Ems, getting 57k + overtime, the med crew behind me averages between 80k and 140k....and yes most brand new doctors out of school make 40-50k for the first 5-10 yrs and then jump into 140k+....oh and if you are specialized in a certain area 500k+ is not uncommen. the more educated you are, the more risk you take, the more remote your work location is, the more $$$ you will see. besides, I personally don't recommend anybody getting into aviation..... But that's just me. 1 Quote
mrjibbs Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 besides, I personally don't recommend anybody getting into aviation..... But that's just me. ha! I like that! This convo got kinda crazy! Glad someone has some humor! Quote
Trans Lift Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) A "vessel" is defined as a boat, and the word "ship" can be used interchangeably. I here people call helicopters "ships" all the time so I thought I would throw that one out there. My boss calls it a PIG sometimes...... I have a considerable amount of time in helicopters and I'm still uncomfortable every time the skids leave the ground. Now that makes me uncomfortable knowing that. Why do you feel that way? I personally would have flown tours at 200 hours and felt comfortable. Just because someone doesn't feel uncomfortable, doesn't mean that they are not safe and competent. Just like the everyone telling me to start riding on a 400cc, I got bored in a few days and went riding on a 1200cc. Just wish I had a job that paid me enough to buy one..... Edited July 17, 2011 by Trans Lift Quote
Guest Maximinious Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) ... Edited July 30, 2011 by Maximinious 1 Quote
helonorth Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) how bout when that tour turns into an engine failure and you have 3 lives on your hands? Is that still straight and normal? If it can happen, it will happen. Comfort is a synonom for complacency. See for yourself: thesaurus So yes, I don't feel comfort when I fly, especially with a student or a passenger onboard my vessel. I am on the ball starting from when the key turns. Seems like I fly for different reasons they you do. IMilitary pilots can make over 100K, especially if they get deployed.Vessel? Seriously? Are you actually a pilot? I am glad you "are on the ball starting from when the key turns" LOLAs for what to do when the engine quits, I would start with an autorotation. At 200 hours, you have probably done hundreds of them, probably recently. I do a few once a year. I had a student experience an engine failure at less than 200 hours. Put it down without a scratch. Edited July 18, 2011 by helonorth 3 Quote
ADRidge Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I think Maximonious and that dude from Boatpix should meet. They'd get along just fine. 4 Quote
Falko Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 ....IMilitary pilots can make over 100K, especially if they get deployed. well maxi, then i dont understand why you are in civil aviation and complain about the low pay KNOWING that you can make 100k+ in the military ? And also, if you don't fell safe flying a helicopter you might be better of doing something else and do your pax and yourself a favor. 6 Quote
Trans Lift Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Agreed Falko. If you don't feel comfortable you shouldn't be doing it. I rarely get above 100 feet and it's 98% off airport but yet I feel comfortable doing it. Doesn't mean that I'm going to ball it up if I have an issue. Let me know where you work Maxi so I can advise friends and family not to fly there...... 2 Quote
Azhigher Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I am on the ball starting from when the key turns. So before the key turns, you're not on the ball? Also, if you're still flying something that takes a key to start you probably shouldn't be telling people they don't know jack sh!t about flying. A little humility goes a long way ya know... 2 Quote
Shaun Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I am on the ball during takeoff and grossly incompetent during landing. Then on again for shutdown. 2 Quote
clay Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I tried to get on the ball, that $hit is tough!!! I thought I had good balance, but I was wrong 3 Quote
Guest Maximinious Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) ... Edited July 30, 2011 by Maximinious Quote
CharyouTree Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 You guys can make fun all you want. I bet I would own any one of you guys in helicopters with my key start vessel. I'm glad you have such a mature, safe attitude as a highly experienced pilot... Why do you think it's acceptable for a 200 hour pilot to fly with someone who has never stepped foot in an aircraft, and teach them how to fly (which they apparently don't know how to do very well, and if they do, they should CERTAINLY not feel competent in what they're doing...)? But you don't think it's ok for that same person to be behind the controls the entire time, showing some people some things? In your "experience" (which you tout, but don't elaborate), how many unexpected engine failures have you had? How many "real" emergency procedures have you had to respond to, that makes you more experienced for when it happens? 4 Quote
Pohi Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 If you're still flying something that takes a key to start you probably shouldn't be telling people... My favorite quote ever. 3 Quote
gary-mike Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Most Boats take a key don't they? Ok I slipped, that was childish. I understand what Max was saying in the OP, I also see the other side of it. It would be great if all pilots made as much $ as the average civillian non-pilot thought they did. It seems to be a broken system that may never get fixed, unless humanity all of a sudden loses the dream of flying. The job in discussion would actually not be too bad for me a few years down the road... If I am drawing my military retirement check.( providing the government sees fit to fund it). 4 days a week, get to fly, and go home to the family at night and the weekends. However without retirement, I don't see how that income could support my family. I would much rather fly for Temsco or in the Grand Canyon and make closer to a decent paycheck with a few benefits. Edited July 19, 2011 by gary-mike Quote
IFLY Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 R22butters have you applied for the job yet? Jerry 2 Quote
Spike Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) The marketing aspect is an important part of the helicopter business. This includes how the company represents itself to potential employees and uneducated customers. With this instance, are we talking about a helicopter tour operation or a helicopter company that provides helicopter rides and markets those rides as tours? There is a difference and Ill let you be the judge…… The fact remains, most tour pilot requirements are up in the 2000 hour range. Yeah, I know, most of those operators utilize turbines but they are helicopter TOUR operators nonetheless. While there seems to be a lot of debate about the level of pilot experience for this particular tour operator, let me offer this scenario. Say, some helicopter company decides to include helicopter tours as an element of their business and in an effort to keep their costs down; they hired a low-time pilot to give these so-called tours over their little sanctum. Then one day, tragedy strikes and our new 200 hour tour pilot attempts to descend below the lowest terrain and 4 fatalities occur. Soon thereafter, the owner of the company will no doubt find himself in court defending himself and his company against accusations of negligence. The plaintiffs attorneys will claim negligence by the simple fact that the industry standard for a tour pilot is 10 times what he required for his pilots. And no, the jury will not discern between pistons and turbines. It was a helicopter tour operation and the company rolled the dice and hired the lowest experienced pilot he could get in order to keep his overall operational costs down…. What do you think the outcome would be? Just because a 200 hour pilots can fly paying passengers doesnt necessarily mean they should…. Sure the current system appears to be flawed, but for whatever reason, it works. IMHO, its due to the fact that most pilots become CFIs and new CFIs are essentially thrown into the deep end. There, they either sink or swim… For those who swim, learn valuable lessons which they impart onto their students. After that, the circle repeats itself every time the pilot advances into a new position…. The ugly saying goes, ignorance is bliss and certainly applies here. For most humans, the only time were really responsible for someone elses life is when we dont run them down in the cross-walk. Think about it, on a day-to-day basis, what job is there where you are 100% responsible for human life? Not many…. The level of responsibility of flying people in a helicopter is immense. One who has never done it before cant really fathom that level of responsibility as most just focus on the flying stuff. Shoot, its why we have PART 135 regulations. Their lives are in your hands, its that simple… In the past, I have suggested to eager-beavers not to be so hot-cuss willing to assume that responsibility. It will come with time and over time, youll appreciate the extent of that responsibility.. Truly, its a significant part of ones attitude toward this business… Take it lightly, and youll have a hard time keeping a job… One last thing. I really wish helicopter companies did hire 200 hour pilots on a regular basis... Why? With that kind of philosophy, I could go from an AStar to an S-64 in a blink of an eye……… Edited July 19, 2011 by Spike 3 Quote
r22butters Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) No,...I'm not doing this anymore! Edited July 20, 2011 by r22butters 2 Quote
Shaun Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 No,...I'm not doing this anymore! It's always darkest before it goes pitch black! 1 Quote
helonorth Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Here's another story: company hires 200 hour pilot to fly tours. Pilot gets a 1000 hours and goes and gets a real job. And another story: 2500 hour pilot flies a perfectly good helicopter into the side of the Grand Canyon killing all on board. Your point? The hypothetical stories are fun to write, but the drama does nothing to bolster an argument. How many hours do you need to get a job flying tours in the Grand Canyon? 2000? Seems high. 200 hour pilots don't stay 200 hour pilots forever, do they? Even tour pilots? The tour operator that has an accident is going to have some serious legal problems no matter what. It won't matter one bit if the pilot even has 20,000 hours. And they crash too, which some people seem to forget. Just to add, your hypothetical pilot "attempts to descend below the lowest terrain." What does that mean? A 200 hour pilot doesn't have enough experience to know where the ground is? Edited July 20, 2011 by helonorth 1 Quote
Falko Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 ok guys here it is, thats me on my first job as a tour pilot with 200hrs.... after this flight i finally felt confortable flying a helicopter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elY8uJ6xN7M&feature=player_embedded 3 Quote
Spike Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Here's another story: company hires 200 hour pilot to fly tours. Pilot gets a 1000 hours and goes and gets a real job. And another story: 2500 hour pilot flies a perfectly good helicopter into the side of the Grand Canyon killing all on board. Your point? The hypothetical stories are fun to write, but the drama does nothing to bolster an argument. How many hours do you need to get a job flying tours in the Grand Canyon? 2000? Seems high. 200 hour pilots don't stay 200 hour pilots forever, do they? Even tour pilots? The tour operator that has an accident is going to have some serious legal problems no matter what. It won't matter one bit if the pilot even has 20,000 hours. And they crash too, which some people seem to forget. Just to add, your hypothetical pilot "attempts to descend below the lowest terrain." What does that mean? A 200 hour pilot doesn't have enough experience to know where the ground is? Being you’re quoting text which I provided then I’ll assume you’re speaking to me. The story is MY prospective of how this business operates. That is, MY opinion how operators commonly save on costs and what can happen IF something bad happens. Have you ever been close to a “bad happening” in this business? Just so you understand, if something bad happens with a 20K pilot behind the controls, lack of experience will not be considered as a causal factor in the accident. Simply put; one less element a plaintiff’s attorney can argue against…. Furthermore, my post is not meant as a comparison between low-time guys and high-time guys and I don’t appreciate the spin… Personally, I have no dog in this fight. Just an opinion based upon MY experience. Plus, there is really no need for me add to this debate as this industry dictates the standards set forth. Not me. Low time guys can argue all they want, but in the end, that’s all it is. An argument. The fact remains, the most recent employment ads indicate minimum requirements for tour pilots at; Blue Hawaiian 2500 hours and HeliUSA 2500 hours. Of course anyone with less time would believe these minimums “seem high”. Maybe it is, maybe not. Personally, I think it’s a shame employer’s want aircraft specific time in order to step-up into a medium. Pilots step up and up and up over their careers but once twin engines machines come into the picture, the “stepping up” becomes more difficult. Why is that? The guy with lots of experience instantly becomes inexperienced once an engine is introduced. What a bunch of malarkey… But, that’s MY opinion and I realize there’s not much I can do about it and I certainly don’t cry about it….. I understand the plight as I too was once a struggling low time pilot and believed I could do anything at 200 hours. However, I now know how wrong I was. Wrong, not because of my lack of experience. Wrong, because the industry said so… Lastly, the comment “descend below the lowest terrain” is a comical reference to CFIT. If you didn’t get it, then you must be new………. 2 Quote
RkyMtnHI Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 ok guys here it is, thats me on my first job as a tour pilot with 200hrs.... after this flight i finally felt confortable flying a helicopter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elY8uJ6xN7M&feature=player_embedded Yep, flown with Falko.. could easily be him.. dp 2 Quote
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