Big Brother

[Black Bear]

Has anyone had the experience of being detained, even momentarily by homeland security on the ramp since they have started ramp checking GA pilots? It appears that they think they are the FAA and are using the guise of "checking for appropriate documentation" to effect a stop and sweat the pilot for awhile. If so, what was the experience like for you?

[Astro]

Having someone stop you to check your "papers" is more of a Cold War KGB reference than Big Brother.

 

Anyway, the school from whom I rent had me take an online course from Homeland Security, after which I got a "Flight School Security Awareness, Certificate of Achievement". I haven't been ramp checked yet, but I'm not worried since my "papers" are in order.

[eddiebauer86]

Ive read a few articles about this in AOPA and it seems like they believe that law enforcement is casting out a large net in order to catch people running dope out of California. I find it hard to believe that they would act on random information, but I could be wrong.

Aside from checking your pilot's license, medical, airplane docs ect, I would question the legality of a search of me or my plane absent a warrant or at least good probable cause. I think FEDERAL inspectors can check all your FAA related paperwork, but local law enforcement really has no jurisdiction outside what they would be contacting you off the airport. I wount not voluntarily consent to any searches, but I would be very polite about it and I would not try to fight them. If I felt I was violated, then I would contact an attorney and pursue civil damages in court.

 

You have to tread very lightly when dealing with these situations, but the key is to maintain your cool. All of your remedies are in civil court, so I would hesitate to resist physically or start a proverbial "pissing contest".

 

This is all based on the fact that Im not a criminal and I have nothing to hide, yet, I hold dear my rights afforded by the US Constitution.

[Flying Pig]

Hmmmm.... As a 16 yr CA cop and 10 year LE aviator I've never seen a random stop and search of an aircraft by the local LEOs nor have I ever been asked to do one. But Ok. I can tell you the vast majority of cops at the local level know nothing about aircraft, documents or regs and that the last thing going through their minds is to head out to the local airport and start ramp checking pilots.

 

I have heard stories about some cop in Missouri I think who was treading into that area because he heard he could do it, which, yes, they can. I believe some complaints were made and he was told to get off the airport and handle his beat by his supervisor. But beyond that...... I wouldn't sweat it. If a cop is standing at the the local FBO and approaches you, treat it no different than if you were approached by one on the street or in your car. Being on an airport or taxiing by in an airplane doesn't give anyone any sort of immunity.

 

I have contacted a pilot as he taxiied. I got him on the unicom and instructed him to taxi back to the FBO. Yes, he argued on the radio that I had no jurisdiction on an airport. I guess he didnt realize the city owned the airport

 

The attractive female secretary at the FBO had a Domestic Violence restraining order against him but he felt for some reason it didn't apply at the airport and continued to talk to her at the counter.......so yes, I was standing there waiting for him as he got out of his Cessna 182. I arrested him at his plane. I could have searched it incident to arrest, but I elected not to. I locked it up for him and off to jail he went. CA PC 273.6 for you legal buffs

 

So I would just say, if you are contacted...... roll with it until you understand why. Because this guy believed he hadn't don't anything wrong either.....supposedly

Edited September 9, 2013 by Flying Pig

[Mikemv]

AOPA has been showing a lot about this in their weekly videos.

 

Some say it is initiated because of the difference in Fed and State marijuana laws?

 

One of the AOPA reporting said that the CBP had local back up.

 

When AOPA tried to follow up on the search, no record of it happening could be found in CBP records. The locals had info on it.

 

Act professional, as they do not abuse you physically. It may be an inconvenience. Are you too stressed to fly afterwards? IMSAFE?

Edited September 9, 2013 by Mikemv

[Flying Pig]

You would have to consider how reporting may be done. CBP could have made a contact as part of a task force that is actually commanded by the local LE. So the case or incident would be documented with that local agencies dispatch center. Federal agencies do not have dispatchers in the context of what a Sheriff or a PD would have. One of the huge pains in the rear with working on a multi agency program is many times, you will he using another departments report writing system and case number issuing programs.

So.... possibly.... a federal agents report could actually be under the Sheriffs Office. In some instances, the officer may have to write two reports. One under the task force case number and another (usually just cut and pasted) under their departments case number.

It means nothing in a legal sense, but can explain why somone was contacted by a CBP agent but the Sheriff has the case number. It can work opposite also. A sheriff or PD officer can have a case number issied by a State DOJ or Fed agency. Clear as mud?

Edited September 9, 2013 by Flying Pig

[pilot#476398]

Has anyone had the experience of being detained, even momentarily by homeland security on the ramp since they have started ramp checking GA pilots? It appears that they think they are the FAA and are using the guise of "checking for appropriate documentation" to effect a stop and sweat the pilot for awhile. If so, what was the experience like for you?

 

I see cops at the airport all the time, parked at the tower at night. They've never even said boo to me (not even after hours)! Personally I think they're just there to use the tower bathroom (like me) and/or eat dinner in their car?

 

I've never heard of homeland security doing ramp checks! When did they start that?, and what was your experience?

Edited September 9, 2013 by pilot#476398

[Flying Pig]

More than likely.... they are wishing they were the pilot who just flew in to use the bathroom

[Mikemv]

http://www.toledoblade.com/business/2013/09/09/Private-pilots-chafe-at-surprise-searches.html

[Flying Pig]

Kicked in their door and forced him and his wife back out to their plane so it could be searched?

 

Yeah..... OK. Some big pieces to that story were conveniently left out for some reason. What I find amusing is this idea that local Law Enforcement acts at the "direction" of a federal agency. Not true. I could give to rats behinds less what a federal agent tells me to do in the scope of my duties. Contrary to Hollyweird, they dont "outrank" anyone no more than I out rank them. In fact a deputy sheriff is usually the law officer with the most jurisdictional authority. Work in a Civil Unit and you would understand just how much power a Sheriff has in their county.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Flying Pig

[Little Red 22]

It's true, "stop and chats" are real. Twice here at Santa Paula Airport so far. The story is that they stopped aircraft that showed "suspicious route of flight". Nothing found, nobody hauled off, lots of cop cars and lots of guns. It's pretty shocking to watch. No apologies either.

[Flying Pig]

And who is it that had all these guns and does the "chatting"?

[apiaguy]

Flying pig acting his namesake

[Goldy]

How can I not give my two cents to this?

 

It seems the stops have been mostly Fed-CBP driven. The right for a local cop to stop and say hi and ask for your papers is one thing. Part 61 even requires that you show your pilot documents to local law enforcement. However, many of these stops involve searching privately owned aircraft, presumably without reasonable suspicion of a crime. My personal feeling is it is absolutely an illegal search, but I'm not an aircraft legal expert, I suspect the right case will come along where this is challenged in the courts, and after a few years I predict it will be found unconstitutional.

 

But so is tracking you, keeping emails and cell phone records without cause, and we know where that right went.

 

Oh how I miss the days of just kicking in the bad guys door.

[aussiecop]

Can they search your aircraft, well if you agree yes. Can they search if they have reasonable cause, well yes, if they see a pound of weed on your copilot seat or something else illegal in plain sight. Can they search when you say no, no, not without a warrant. I just recently finished my LE career and even as a pilot I was not once interested in searching a plane or helicopter. I spent my time at the airport hanging out an making sure the airport was secure versus making a pilots day suck.

[Fred0311]

I had an interesting conversation with a charter buisness jet pilot the other day. He said they've been getting calls lately from places in California asking them to take a package from LA to Denver. When they ask what made them choose an operator in salt lake city they say because all the local ones refused to. Some of the issues with "legalization" I suppose and perhaps related to such stops.

[Nearly Retired]

Some people say about stuff, "I've never seen that happen so I'm sure it does not." Well, Stevie Wonder has never seen a sunrise but that doesn't mean it doesn't occur. So if AOPA is reporting that more TSA and/or CBP "stops" are being made, I would not doubt it.

 

Can your aircraft be searched without a warrant? Well...no...not really...except... Except that what happens is that if some law enforcement agency has a "deal" with you, they'll detain you and wait for the FAA to show up and conduct a ramp check. Either way, your aircraft is being searched. So lie back and enjoy it.

 

This goes along with the current newsflash from the FAA that pilots have no rights. Of course we don't, we only have privileges, according to them. We have no "right" to fly in the U.S. airspace.

 

There was a glider pilot up here who lives in the area but is from the Czech Republic. Had a pretty negative opinion of police and authority figures in general. He was flying along, but could not make it back to base. So he set it down in a wheat field, close to a road so the crew could come get him with the trailer. This is what gliders do. The ship was not damaged, and the pilot was obviously not injured. Just a normal off-airport landing.

 

Alarmed residents call the police and report an "aircraft down." Police respond wtih lights and sirens. Czech pilot refuses to answer ANY questions (since he has done nothing wrong) other than, "I ran out of lift," and gets arrested for his trouble.

 

Nowadays, aircraft and their operators are viewed with suspicion by both the general public and the police. Even when you've done nothing wrong, you can still expect to be hassled. If you manage to avoid it, great. But I think the chances are greater and greater each day that we move closer and closer to Nazi Germany. And we are.

[Mikemv]

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/aopa-toughens-stance-aircraft-searches?cmpid=enews091013&spPodID=030&spMailingID=17883043&spUserID=NjIxODA4MjExOTES1&spJobID=228193256&spReportId=MjI4MTkzMjU2S0

[Goldy]

Can they search your aircraft, well if you agree yes. Can they search if they have reasonable cause, well yes, if they see a pound of weed on your copilot seat or something else illegal in plain sight. Can they search when you say no, no, not without a warrant. I just recently finished my LE career and even as a pilot I was not once interested in searching a plane or helicopter. I spent my time at the airport hanging out an making sure the airport was secure versus making a pilots day suck.

Aussie- you and I both lived by those laws, but these new searches being reported are not with any cause, in fact, many of the officers have stated they are searching the aircraft simply because they have "the right" to. Followed by the fact that no arrests have been reported, which certainly puts doubt that any real probable cause existed. I loved a good hook more than anyone, but apparently, the rules have changed, and not for the better.

[Flying Pig]

Aussie- you and I both lived by those laws, but these new searches being reported are not with any cause, in fact, many of the officers have stated they are searching the aircraft simply because they have "the right" to. Followed by the fact that no arrests have been reported, which certainly puts doubt that any real probable cause existed. I loved a good hook more than anyone, but apparently, the rules have changed, and not for the better.

You were told this by an officer? If so, what agency? Id be more than happy to call them and ask what their deal is.

[aussiecop]

Aussie- you and I both lived by those laws, but these new searches being reported are not with any cause, in fact, many of the officers have stated they are searching the aircraft simply because they have "the right" to. Followed by the fact that no arrests have been reported, which certainly puts doubt that any real probable cause existed. I loved a good hook more than anyone, but apparently, the rules have changed, and not for the better.

Goldy and Flying Pig,

 

We all know cops who just love to swing their you know what around to see who it hits, that live right on the edge of a suspension or being fired for violating rights. I have known a few in my day and not one of them impressed me in the slightest. Just because you ha a hard time in high school being bullied is no reason to get into LE to exact your revenge by being a tool 100% of the time. I'd be the guy who would land and ask to be searched an end up being arrested for nothing because I know what laws and regs I do have to follow more than they would.

 

I sincerely hope that there is not a bunch of these guys who are hearing out a "new" power that they think they have to go out there and make fellow aviators lives harder, I can think of nothing that would get up my nose worse than after a long flight than being jammed up for no reason other than "because I can".

 

I recently had a conversation with a lifelong buddy of mine in LE who told me that if he was told to go start rounding up guns if it ever went pear shaped that he would blindly do as he was told. My response other than disgust and a rant about the constitution was to tell him he'd never make it as a helicopter pilot as they are required to think independently to often for his liking...but that is a whole other kettle of fish, I digress

[Pohi]

This might be apples and oranges here, but the dept of wildlife (fish and game?) people do bag searches of passengers coming from offshore looking to catch people for illegal fishing while they are at their platforms. They have been doing that for a while.

 

I know its not GA, its 135, but they have every right to do so and they use those rights.

[Flying Pig]

Its because the word is out about you. One day you are going to get caught with the Little Mermaid in your bag and youll be going away for a looooong time!

[Mikemv]

Congress is concerned!

 

http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live.aspx?cmp=ALTW:L5b

[helonorth]

This might be apples and oranges here, but the dept of wildlife (fish and game?) people do bag searches of passengers coming from offshore looking to catch people for illegal fishing while they are at their platforms. They have been doing that for a while.

 

I know its not GA, its 135, but they have every right to do so and they use those rights.

I have heard of that but never seen it. I think it's an urban legend. How much fish could you bring in in your bag? Not enough to waste the time and resources. Most of the illegally caught fish gets eaten offshore. Not much they can do about that.