The Kiowa going away is looking more and more likely.

[vani58]

A lot of guys where I am are hoping for the C-12 AQC...

[Justine]

I am really not seeing how it is cheaper. Having to retrain and change out equipment/facilities for the NG and the Kiowas being replaced is going to take soo much money and time as it is...then you cut 300 plus helos from the force when you are playing footsie with the far east.

[akscott60]

Just like the kiowas future... couldn't resist lol

Get your wings first, then talk sh*t.

 

;-)

[d10]

I am really not seeing how it is cheaper.

 

It's a long term savings. Also it's not a comparison between keeping an aging 58D fleet as they are or getting rid of them, you'd need to look at the cost of finding a replacement (knowing the Commanche and ARH programs have already failed) or spending a lot of money to upgrade the fleet. And if you go the upgrade route, you need to spend enough to keep the Kiowa relevant for the next 30 years because that's how the Army invests in equipment.

[Justine]

 

It's a long term savings. Also it's not a comparison between keeping an aging 58D fleet as they are or getting rid of them, you'd need to look at the cost of finding a replacement (knowing the Commanche and ARH programs have already failed) or spending a lot of money to upgrade the fleet. And if you go the upgrade route, you need to spend enough to keep the Kiowa relevant for the next 30 years because that's how the Army invests in equipment.

I was advised by a commander that the 64s being taken from the NG is 1 of 4 COA, and if that happened they wouldn't take all them away. This is good news for Yamer and I. However, it has just been a bunch of rumors in every direction. Its too easy to catastrophize.

[Jester2138]

I think a lesson to take away from this (and history in general) is not to join any part of the military because you want to fly particular types of aircraft. Maybe join for the mission, people, and job.

[SBuzzkill]

Don't join for the mission either...

[Justine]

Don't join for the mission either...

Its all about the mission and mission completion.

[Joe_P148]

I think a lesson to take away from this (and history in general) is not to join any part of the military because you want to fly particular types of aircraft. Maybe join for the mission, people, and job.

You cant even join for that, because you don't know what mission you are going to get. Army Aviation's mission in general is changing. OIF and OEF has really changed the way we think about Army Aviation in terms of full spectrum warfare.

 

We went from a Air Mobile and Air Cav from Vietnam and kept that mindset up for a long time. We built a OH58 that masked behind terrain using the MMS and was suppose to observe and then we morphed it into a small CAS and observation / security platform.

 

The 58 is really good at it's mission and it has been an amazing platform for OIF and OEF but like the A-10 I think it's fate is sealed. We can look at the A-10 simmilarly the Air Force just doesn't want it around anymore.

 

Anyone that knows anything about either airframe or has worked around them knows they are both very good aircraft but they just don't fit the profile that either service wants to go to.

 

Anyone that is just joining up the military as a pilot has to understand that in the next 3-7 years Army Aviation is going to change. You cannot expect to do the same things and the same missions that the Aviators in the early to mid 2000's did. Nor would you want to, we learned a lot from the mistakes and TTP's of our fallen aviators. Some good and some bad, but we know know that sometimes the risk wasn't worth it and you can see that today in CRM.

 

If you are like me, you are disappointed to see the 58 taken away. But we all know that it was better to see it go away like this then watch all the 58 pilots loose their mission set to UAV's and Apaches and then sit on the ground while everyone else is flying.

 

So, you can either go against the grain and fight this OR, realize that most of us have absolutely no control over the situation and go with it or get out of the Army.

 

My 2 cents.

[Yamer]

Get your wings first, then talk sh*t.

 

;-)

Pardon me, sir. I'll return to the corner with all the other aviation mechanics that have different wings... 😗😁

Edited December 24, 2013 by Yamer

[akscott60]

Oh this aint enlisted vs. officer sh*t. You are now a soon to be candidate. This is warrant officer sh*t.

 

In other words, talk aircraft sh*t when you fly. :-)

 

Oh, have fun at SERE.

[Yamer]

Ok now you are sounding like its serious instead of joking...

[akscott60]

Haha. I am actually joking. Its christmas.

[brackac]

Oh this aint enlisted vs. officer sh*t. You are now a soon to be candidate. This is warrant officer sh*t.

 

In other words, talk aircraft sh*t when you fly. :-)

 

Oh, have fun at SERE.

 

 

Says the Fridge Bitch. Sounds like you need a no-notice when you get back in January.

[akscott60]

Haha. Yea. I'm headed to AQC in Jan so I will get plenty of tests. No need to worry.

[Yamer]

Lol

[Rob1237051]

Thick skin is a requirement for pilots and (flying) crew members.

[Jester2138]

I meant "mission" much more generally than y'all're taking it but that was some good advice, anyway.

[Joe_P148]

The loudest Aviators are typically the newest ones

[Yamer]

Thick skin is a requirement for pilots and (flying) crew members.

Weird part is that I was more worried about offending Scott than I was about being hurt myself lmao

[akscott60]

Anyway. Boo Kiowa. Still pisses me off.

[smalltownguy]

Look at the bright side... you guys who fly them now get to be the last pilots to fly a generation of military aircraft, may not sound like much to some but I think that is pretty cool. Also, there is a good chance you will be able to learn all about another bird in the Army family. That may sound like "dang I gotta start over" but really that is still an awesome opportunity! At the end of the day, you can say there was a time in your life you got to fly a piece of Army Aviation history and do it for the greatest country in the world. Cheers to you guys! Now go show up other pilots in their own aircraft and give the Kiowa guys a good name!

[copterdoctor64]

Followup Article on Inside Defense

 

 

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel has approved an Army plan to restructure its aviation forces that includes divesting all OH-58 Kiowa Warrior helicopters and taking all AH-64 Apache helicopters out of the National Guard to fill the active component's armed aerial scout mission requirement, according to a defense official.

The official said the defense secretary has adopted the Army's plan in the form it was briefed on Capitol Hill, to key industry players and to Inside the Army last month. The approval of the aviation restructure was driven by internal Pentagon guidance given to the Army earlier this week. A resource management decision that will further detail the implementation of the plan, which will inform the fiscal year 2015 budget request, has yet to be distributed. Orders from the Army staff to move the plan forward are expected in March or April, the official added.

Another defense official confirmed the plan has leadership support, but noted the budget is only considered final when the President releases it.

Office of the Secretary of Defense spokeswoman Maureen Schumann told ITA today she did not have any information to release on any decisions from the defense secretary on the proposal, while Army spokesman Lt. Col. Don Peters said the "Aviation Restructure Initiative is still an Army proposal," and referred further questions to OSD.

ITA first reported last month that the Army was proposing to restructure its aviation fleets to deal with declining budgets and expected force reductions. The service's FY-15 through -19 program objective memorandum was set to "salami slice" the Army aviation's budget, according to a service official, leading the Army to develop an alternate plan to better manage its aviation assets and structure the branch in a way that makes sense for its future role.

Army officials said in early December that the service's proposed restructure is designed to simplify the types of platforms within the fleet and divest the oldest, least-capable aircraft.

In addition to retiring the Kiowa fleet and using Apaches to fill the armed scout mission, the Army plans to retire its entire training fleet of TH-67s and replace those with LUH-72A Lakota helicopters.

In return for losing all of its Apaches and some Kiowas and Lakotas -- a total of 215 aircraft -- the Guard will receive 111 L-model Black Hawks, according to a National Guard Association document obtained by ITA. The Guard's total loss amounts to 104 aircraft.

The National Guard Association and Guard advocates on Capitol Hill are questioning the Army's proposed aviation restructure, especially its move to take Apaches out of the Guard. John Goheen, NGAUS communication director, said last week that taking the attack helicopters away from the Guard amounts to "squandering" valuable experience and capability. "Putting all the aircraft on that active side means that is all you've got," he said. "You have nothing in reserve. Where is the cost savings here? And quite honestly these proposals never take into consideration the value and experience, nor do they take into consideration the turbulence of these types of moves."

Goheen said the Army plan seemed to have been formulated in a hasty manner without the Guard's input, but Army spokesman Peters disagreed. "The Army has been completely transparent with the National Guard, which participated in the process, throughout the development of the Aviation Transformation effort and we will continue to be," he said.

The Army National Guard Readiness Center is putting together a counter-proposal that "is not ready yet," Goheen said last week, adding that he did not know the details behind it. He said he expected the plan to be ready soon for consideration by OSD.

"The Adjutants General are looking at the proposal," National Guard Bureau Chief Gen. Frank Grass told ITA following a Jan. 9 National Press Club luncheon. "We are getting some feedback; we had a meeting yesterday. We are not at a solution yet, but we are continuing to negotiate."

Grass said the Guard has been working "extremely closely" with the Army to find the right mix. The reserve components should be complementary to the active component, he said when asked whether the Guard needed Apache helicopters as part of its operations. "We've got a lot of experience right now in our Apache units and as the Army draws down we would like to be able to offer those pilots coming off active duty opportunities in the Guard and keep that experience level. What it takes to train an Apache pilot is a lot of time and lot of money. We could take that into the Guard and help save a lot of training and recruiting money," Grass added.

Also on the table in discussions is finding a way to structure the active and reserve components "where you bring the active and Guard to serve together because I think there is huge value there for the future," Grass stated.

"We've got a long way to go, we continue to work it and work it hard and the dialogue is every week. But in the big scheme, we have this budget issue we've got to deal with," he added.

Meanwhile, the Army is continuing to execute a program that is facing cancellation under the service's aviation restructure plan. Retiring the Vietnam-era Kiowa fleet would mean the cancellation of the OH-58's Cockpit and Sensor Upgrade Program, still in its early stages and not slated to reach low-rate initial production until July 2015. CASUP is meant to keep the Kiowa flying until a life-extension program can be initiated or a new replacement procured.

The Army has tried to replace the Kiowa Warrior three times, most recently holding official flight demonstrations of industry offerings from Boeing, Bell, EADS, AgustaWestland and MD Helicopter in the summer and fall of 2012. The Army also looked at data on Sikorksy's yet-to-be-built, next-generation coaxial helicopter, called Raider, that is expected to make its first flight by the end of the 2014.

"KW CASUP continues to execute in accordance with the restructured program schedule approved in August 2013. The first production qualification aircraft build is scheduled to complete in March 2014, and will then enter acceptance test procedures," Army spokeswoman Sofia Bledsoe wrote in a Jan. 9 statement to ITA.

The FY-14 budget and the next POM "are not certain at this time," she said. "In light of this uncertainty, the program is operating prudently by obligating the minimum resources necessary to maintain the program schedule."

The program "will continue to execute the developmental efforts as scheduled until a formal decision is made with respect to the Aviation Force Restructure," Bledsoe wrote. "Current development efforts include supporting the Flight Test Program and PQ aircraft builds for the Limited User Test and Milestone C."

[afarcryfromsane]

Of course, nowhere in here does it mention that ground commanders continue to request Kiowa deployments to support dismounted operations.

 

Or that the overwhelming majority of ground pounders think this is a terrible decision.

 

But hey, the war in Afghanistan is pretty much over, right?

 

Until it isn't.

 

A$$holes.

[akscott60]

I need a drink.