jjsemperfi Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 How can some 141 programs get away with charging whatever they want, for any program they want? While other programs are scrutinized and audited and held to a financial cap? 1 Quote
Boatpix Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 I've been 141 for almost ten years. Can you be more specific in what you are asking? Almost all programs are based upon a dual rate. Our dual rate is $300/hour and we have a below solo photo rate at $225/hour. I'm also an advertiser. I'm not exactly sure what you are asking and trying to help/ Quote
Velocity173 Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 How can some 141 programs get away with charging whatever they want, for any program they want? While other programs are scrutinized and audited and held to a financial cap? Because they know your GI Bill will pay for it. They need to soak it up while they can before they go the way of Silver State. Quote
Boatpix Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 I was 141 way before Silver State came and went. I predicted it and anyone on the forum before Superbowl Sunday of 2008 knew I was very vocal. But what is the real question? Every helicopter company has a dual and solo rate. The FAR's spell the minimums that every senior guy can tell you by rote. Quote
adam32 Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 I think they mean the turbine courses, mountain courses, etc that 141 schools push to students using the GI Bill to try and rape money from the Government 1 Quote
jjsemperfi Posted April 23, 2014 Author Posted April 23, 2014 Yes I'm referring to 141 programs that have a Commercial Course or Instrument course entirely in a Turbine. One of those courses alone is more than all my ratings combined. Just rediculous how different schools are held to different standards financially. How can one school get away with 115 hours of turbine time, and another only 30 (and still be bitched at for spending that much on a 30 hr turbine transition course). Quote
Spike Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) America is a free country….. Flight schools are free to implement any 141 program for which they believe they can profit from……. Students are free to choose the flight school they believe will advance their goals……. Sadly, with the kind of programs you describe, the schools will surly profit but the students will left out in the cold. The helicopter training sector is a “buyers beware” enterprise and believing a flight school has your best interest in mind is a "fool’s gold" scenario…… If any student believes they’ll benefit from flying turbines during their entry-level training, they will only have themselves to blame….. Edited April 23, 2014 by Spike 1 Quote
adam32 Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Except the taxpayers get the short end of the stick in the long run. There needs to be some oversight with the GI Bill instead of a blank check. Quote
RagMan Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) *Cough* Upper Limit Aviation *Cough* What was that? Edited April 23, 2014 by RagMan 4 Quote
helipilotm Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Like Spike said because they can. Remember the FAA, colleges and the VA all oversee the schools. So it's not just the schools fault. In a way if the school can get away with it then more power to them... Quote
Spike Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Except the taxpayers get the short end of the stick in the long run. There needs to be some oversight with the GI Bill instead of a blank check. Taxpayers always get the short end of the stick….. Realistically, it’s the VA beneficiaries who will suffer. That is, a lack of relevant flight time to qualify for an entry level job which will lead to an unemployable 200 hour pilot. Sad but not preventable…….. 2 Quote
superstallion6113 Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) My school offers commercial in the R66. Will I do it? Hell no. I'll do the 10 hrs of turbine transition just because it's part of the curriculum, but I'll do the rest in the R22, just need to lose another 18-20lbs. It's surprising how many other students at my school look down on my thoughts because I'll lack turbine time. My school for a short time was renting a 206 and the student was not allowed to start it. What the heck good does that do me other than offer the school a free $1100/hr? It's a gimmick, 10 hrs is 10 hrs, but I'd rather turn that 10 hrs in an R66 or 206 into 25-30 in the R44, or even more in the R22. If there's one thing I've learned to do it's own your flight training. Don't let the school tell you how your career and decisions should be made, and guide you down a road that earns them more money but puts you in a potential situation that makes you more unemployable at a different school. Edited April 24, 2014 by superstallion6113 3 Quote
jjsemperfi Posted April 24, 2014 Author Posted April 24, 2014 See there in lies the issue. Our affiliated school won't let us turn hours in one helicopter into another. IE if you have a 30 hr turbine transition course. That is strictly for the turbine, not a piston. This is the funny thing about these 141 programs, they can all do whatever they like and eventually the ones taking advantage of the system are going to ruin it for everyone else. Quote
Mikemv Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) USHST JHSIT training work group is addressing the 141 Commercial mandate of 115hrs. That came to be the standard under the 35+115=150 for Commercial before IFR training became the second training program along the path. It needs to be changed. Some schools' programs are more that 40 hrs. at the Pvt. level. Schools that advertise to 35 hours are not informing Pilots for Training about the reality of flight training. I understand about meeting the competitions advertising/offered programs. Currently, Private applicants are taking about 60+ hours to attain their Certificate. With an additional 40-45 for IFR that adds up to 100 or so. Why then does an "approved" 141 Commercial have to be 115 hours? We have suggested 60 hours or any curriculum that meets the requirements of training with submitted hours. We have suggested adding additional CFI training to better prepare CFIs and help reduce instructional accidents. 40 hours within the CFI/II training could meet the SFAR 200 hour requirement. We have a meeting on the 30th of April and I will be bringing this up. Our USHST did address the non-creation of new 141 schools and were told that it was due to lack of FAA resources for continued surveillance. Sharing FSDO resources between Regions was mentioned as a possible solution. I will share info as it becomes available. Mike Edited April 24, 2014 by Mikemv 1 Quote
Flying Pig Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) I've said it before. I have no info other than a gut feeling, and that is that these massive VA education benefits are going to come to an end in the next election cycle. Wars are "over" (whatever that means these days) people are being let go, recruiting isn't an issue. The days of an Air Guard data entry specialist who's never deployed outside the US gettting $85k for school can't continue on. Edited April 24, 2014 by Flying Pig 2 Quote
Spike Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) This is why it is so important to research schools thoroughly prior to enrolling… With that, it probably needs to be said as a cautionary warning to VA beneficiaries. Specifically, as a helicopter flight school VA benefit recipient, your chances of employment once you graduate will be compromised due to lack of oversight by the VA. Beyond this, it’s the beneficiary’s responsibility to become educated on the realities of the industry they are attempting enter. If, as a beneficiary, you believe the “snake oil” tails told by certain flight schools, then (again) you only have yourself to blame……. Furthermore, this issue is not an FAA or training issue. It’s a VA issue….. My advice to anyone is; if you don’t like the program you’re enrolled in simply move on and find another program……. Edited April 24, 2014 by Spike 1 Quote
superstallion6113 Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 See there in lies the issue. Our affiliated school won't let us turn hours in one helicopter into another. IE if you have a 30 hr turbine transition course. That is strictly for the turbine, not a piston. This is the funny thing about these 141 programs, they can all do whatever they like and eventually the ones taking advantage of the system are going to ruin it for everyone else.The school I'm attending doesn't allow that either, though it would be nice. Quote
JohnLeePettimore Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 But, and please correct me if I'm wrong, in your log book, it still counts towards total time, right? And your total PIC time is what is most important for low hour pilots, right? Perhaps I am not understanding the issue correctly. Somebody please clear this up for me. I start my flight training this fall and I am trying to understand as much as I can now before I even start. Thank you. Quote
jjsemperfi Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 We're just complaining about wasted money. Turbine courses are gimmicks used to draw in students but ultimately only benefit the CFI who is instructing in them. So the turbine time does a student no good unless that student becomes a CFI who gets a job teaching in the turbine. Quote
Astro Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 But, and please correct me if I'm wrong, in your log book, it still counts towards total time, right? And your total PIC time is what is most important for low hour pilots, right? Perhaps I am not understanding the issue correctly. Somebody please clear this up for me. I start my flight training this fall and I am trying to understand as much as I can now before I even start. Thank you. Look at it this way. You're an operator looking for a 200hr r22 cfi to join your team (like the 2 job ads just posted). Who are you going to choose, the cfi with 200hrs in an r22, or the one with only 170hrs in an r22 because he spent 30hrs playing in a 206? Employers of low hour pilots want them to know the r22 inside and out, be experienced with a simulator (for instrument training) and fully ready to teach (because that's what they spent most of their time learning how to do). Not ones who can "kindof" long line in a 206 and have an intro in NVG! 3 Quote
helipilotm Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Look at it this way. You're an operator looking for a 200hr r22 cfi to join your team (like the 2 job ads just posted). Who are you going to choose, the cfi with 200hrs in an r22, or the one with only 170hrs in an r22 because he spent 30hrs playing in a 206? Employers of low hour pilots want them to know the r22 inside and out, be experienced with a simulator (for instrument training) and fully ready to teach (because that's what they spent most of their time learning how to do). Not ones who can "kindof" long line in a 206 and have an intro in NVG!I can kind of see your point but really? Your analogy of a 200 hr R22 pilot and 170 in R22 and the rest 206 is comical. If 30 hours is the difference of getting or not getting hired I'm doing something wrong. Quote
Astro Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 A 200hr cfi looking for work would probably benefit more from a 30hr hover in an r22 than those 30 206 hours. 30hrs in a 206, what's that like 90hrs in an r22! There's your ppc and ir for the same price! Now that's comical. 1 Quote
JohnLeePettimore Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Got it. Thank y'all four clearing that up. Quote
Spike Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) If you keep in mind the fact that the R22 and R44 are the most prolific training helicopters in use today with the S300 second, then you can gain some understanding of the “big picture” of what should be happening. That is, if a flight school is truly interested in providing its customers with the training to best prepare them for the reality of this business, then the training fleet should contain a R22, R44 and a S300. For a school to include a 206 and subsequently require 141 students to fly it is a disservice just because no entry-level CFI employer will care about 206 time. A CFI graduate would be much more marketable with the additional S300 experience rather than the 206 experience. This is a no-brainer….. It’s been said before and I guess it needs to be said again; flight schools which operate a 206 do so by the customers (students) supporting the 206. In short, the school uses the 206 as a sales carrot to entice unknowing students to enroll. Once enrolled, they require the student to fly it all-the-while knowing, the only people benefitting is the owner of the school and the CFI teaching in it… Sadly, the chances the customer will someday be the 206 CFI is just as slim as the customer gaining other employment with the additional 206 time…….. And yes, the 30 hours of R22 time will be the difference when considering entry-level employment….. In the end, flight schools can write any type of 141 program they want. With that said, the best schools will offer multiple curriculums to provide the customer with OPTIONS so the customer can choose what’s best for them……. Edited April 25, 2014 by Spike 3 Quote
helipilotm Posted April 26, 2014 Posted April 26, 2014 A 200hr cfi looking for work would probably benefit more from a 30hr hover in an r22 than those 30 206 hours. 30hrs in a 206, what's that like 90hrs in an r22! There's your ppc and ir for the same price! Now that's comical.[/] I'd love to hear your reasoning of your statement? Hovering for 30 hours is a total waste of time compared to 30 hours of flying, including hovering A company looking for a CFI isn't going to squak about somebody that has "170 hrs in a 22 and 30 in a 206". If they do they have no interview skills. Like Spike said do your homework when choosing a school. I'm glad I haven't had to worry about this stuff for awhile. Quote
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