Army Fixed Wing

[Velocity173]

Always thought the A-29 would be perfect for the Army's needs. Too much bureaucratic nonsense (Key West Agreement) will prevent the Army from acquiring them.

[Caelus]

I've never flown anything, but it seems to me like flying fixed wing after flying rotary in the USA is like trying your hand at pro golf after being a star NFL quarterback. A-10s would be pretty cool, but that's about it. I know quite a few field grade "fighter" pilots who find it dull, referring to themselves as glorified UPS drivers. Without an air-to-air mission I can definitely see how it would be that way. Take off, fly to target, push button, fly home.

 

But quality of life? Yea. Not Army.

 

 

I know this was probably said somewhat jokingly, but it's been haunting me a little since I read it. I know a little bit about military life, I was active Air Force for 4 years and I'm on active duty orders for the AF again at Ft. Bragg right now, and I know that the Army deploys longer and probably PCSs more often, but is there anything else about quality of life in the Army dragging it down besides those two points? Is it really that bad? Not that it's going to deter me, but I don't want to be surprised for the sake of my wife and family.

[akscott60]

No, its not bad. But its Army, field work, long hours, PT, additional duties, not flying much, then deployment, war, etc.

 

Its not Air conditioned comfort flying to Paris and getting some nice food.

[USCav19D]

No, its not bad. But its Army, field work, long hours, PT, additional duties, not flying much, then deployment, war, etc.

 

Its not Air conditioned comfort flying to Paris and getting some nice food.

Which is why I've always trusted Army aviation to have our backs when fixed wing wouldn't - or couldn't. Our pilots are Soldiers first, and always seem more than willing to stick their necks out for us lowly ground pounders.

[Yamer]

There are... Um.... "Things"... That fixed wing aircraft can do to support the ground soldier.

[akscott60]

Lets not be dicks. We can respond at like 110kts. An F15E can respond a mach 1, and bring 6 JDAMS to the fight. Not every fighter pilot is a douche. Many, many of them know that supporting the soldier on the ground is their job, especially in modern conflicts.

We are all tools in the tool box of the JTAC, or GFC.

Edited June 12, 2015 by akscott60

[USCav19D]

Lets not be dicks. We can respond at like 110kts. An F15E can respond a mach 1, and bring 6 JDAMS to the fight. Not every fighter pilot is a douche. Many, many of them know that supporting the soldier on the ground is their job, especially in modern conflicts.

 

We are all tools in the tool box of the JTAC, or GFC.

 

I've found that A-10s are eager to help almost every time. They can loiter, strafe, and generally do all sorts of things that most fighter jocks either can't or won't do. Being able to respond at Mach 1 and drop 6 JDAMs is great - however in my own limited experience I've found that the requirement of a GO's sign off to drop those JDAMs sort of precludes their use on a regular basis. And of course lets not forget this nightmare. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzBCgbicbA

[shainbourassa]

 

I've found that A-10s are eager to help almost every time. They can loiter, strafe, and generally do all sorts of things that most fighter jocks either can't or won't do. Being able to respond at Mach 1 and drop 6 JDAMs is great - however in my own limited experience I've found that the requirement of a GO's sign off to drop those JDAMs sort of precludes their use on a regular basis. And of course lets not forget this nightmare. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzBCgbicbA

Fratricide happens plenty in the helo world too.

[USCav19D]

Fratricide happens plenty in the helo world too.

 

I'm sure it does, but the general consensus among the guys I knew was that the helicopter pilots were less likely to engage us accidentally than a guy trying to avoid turning into a lawndart at 500 kts while dropping JDAMs.

[Joe_P148]

 

I'm sure it does, but the general consensus among the guys I knew was that the helicopter pilots were less likely to engage us accidentally than a guy trying to avoid turning into a lawndart at 500 kts while dropping JDAMs.

Not to mention that helo pilot was probably on the ground 5 years earlier and lives in country with a year tour.

 

Fighters, launch from sea or out of country and have less SA on what is going on from FL100

[Hotdogs]

Not to mention that helo pilot was probably on the ground 5 years earlier and lives in country with a year tour.

 

Fighters, launch from sea or out of country and have less SA on what is going on from FL100

 

I would also say that depends on the crew, service, and aircraft. Two seaters typically will have more SA than single seat guys, if they are well connected to the command and control network prelaunch, their CAS proficiency level, and if the bird has a TPOD on it - it makes things easier. Harriers dudes flying out of Bastion had a short on station time, but had better SA on particular units in the AO than most Navy or Marine guys coming from the Indian ocean. Air Force guys - complete roll of the dice. Now it helps when you can walk out of your can and talk to the GFC and plan as much as you need/want. Proficiency level of JTACs is another story, and honestly ground guys are not all linked into the comms and listening to all the nets to see the whole picture. They just see a jet drop a huge ass bomb and fly away, then watch Helicopters go pew pew and do hours upon hours of MIR. So while I am all about supporting the guys on the deck, I would take some of what they say with a little grain of salt.

[zaurus]

 

 

Who the hell will want to goto the regionals anyways?... for $25k-30k a year? Yeah right.

The regionals are one step from the Majors. It's like trying out for the minor leagues enroute to the Big Show. Money matters when your kids are entering college and you have a nice mortgage to go along with it. Sometimes you must think of the end game. Military flying only last but so long as a career. Major airline flying is not high on the list for job satisfaction but the pay and time off sure is for the amount of work they perform.

[zVo]

It's not some competition though. Do something that pays the bills and allows you to do what matters in life; being with family.

 

Maybe for civilian RW, but the Army is great if you want to put a family through the meat grinder.

[zaurus]

Then why do we have so many former commercial pilots in Army FW?

 

Plus, who wants to make 28k a year?

The Major airlines are recruiting more from the Regionals. That's their hope anyway. If unsuccessful, Army fixed wing was their plan B obviously.

[stearmann4]

I think the FW track is actually a great idea, doesn't make up for the short sighted 58-LUH-Apache debacle, but it benefits the Army nonetheless. Currently FW is a career ender for WOs because it's chuck full of W4s and W5s. Lets face it, with the exception of limited selection of duty stations (compared to helicopters), its a pretty cush life style as far as Army aviation goes.

 

Just like helicopters, a pilot isn't going to complete his/her ADSO after 6 years and get a tenable airline job. You have to have jet time for the major's hiring minimums, although now, most regionals are getting rid of their turbo-props for CRJs, Globals, etc.

 

Coincidentally, the ADSO ends about the same timeline folks are getting married, starting families, etc and a starting regional isn't that appealing. I have seen some pilots who had a 3-5 year plan, and a goal for the majors and spent their 6 years CFI-ing on the side, getting their ATP, saving money, etc and were able to endure the 4-5 years on food stamps to make it to the bigs. That's not most of us though.

 

I know a bunch of retired arline guys that got their start flying Caribous, OV-1 Mohawks and the like the last era the Army had a robust fixed wing fleet. Plan ahead and it can work for you, but just spending your 6 years doing PC stuff in a King Air probably isn't going to prepare you for the real world.

 

Mike-

[brackac]

I think the FW track is actually a great idea, doesn't make for the short sighted 58-LUH-Apache debacle, but it benefits the Army nonetheless. Currently FW is a career ender for WOs because it's chuck full of W4s and W5s. Lets face it, with the exception of limited selection of duty stations (compared to helicopters), its a pretty cush life style as far as Army aviation goes.

 

Just like helicopters, a pilot isn't going to complete his/her ADSO after 6 years and get a tenable airline job. You have to have jet time for the major's hiring minimums, although now most regionals are getting rid of their turbo-props for CRJs, Globals, etc.

 

Coincidentally, this coincides with about the same timeline folks are getting married, starting families, etc and regional isn't that appealing. I have seen some pilots who had a 3-5 year plan, and a goal for the majors and sent their 6 years CFI-ing on the side, getting their ATP, saving money, etc and were able to weather the 4-5 years on food stamps to make it to the bigs. That's not most of us though.

 

I know a bunch of retired arline guys that got their start flying Caribous, OV-1 Mohawks and the like the last era the Army had a robust fixed wing fleet. Plan ahead and it can work for you, but just spending your 6 years doing C stuff in a King Air probably isn't going to prepare you for the real world.

 

Mike-

 

The "career ender" aspect of FW is why I am moving back to the Apache. I am a safety officer by track, and in my FW unit, which only has 3 Safety MTOE slots, we have 11 safety officers, with me being the second lowest in rank. So, there is no opportunity for career progression unless you get creative and take jobs outside the typical WO line. Which I have been doing, but it's not what I want for my career long term, so back to Apache land I go.

 

FW is already seeing an influx of WO1/CW2 straight out of the FW course, but where can they go career wise? The school trained senior W2's and W3's who are already in place are sitting 2 or 3 deep for tracked positions, so what career opportunities are available for the new kids just coming into FW? Everyone points out how top heavy FW is with W4s and W5s, and the Army is slowly reducing the numbers, but that still leaves a very large group of W2/W3 FW Aviators who are school trained without tracked slots available, especially when you add the 58 drivers making the transition.

 

FW will continue to be a career ender for a long time,

[Lindsey]

Is that typically on option, brackac, to be able to move back to your rotary-wing platform? It was my understanding that it's nigh-impossible.

[Lindsey]

Another thought: when we were briefed back in BOLC about the possibility of the Fixed Wing For Life program, we were told that if you selected a FW slot, you would NOT go through 60/47/64 AQC. You'd go straight to the fixed wing course. If that's correct, would you still get your rotary-wing CPL & IFR ratings? If not, well, that's a huge downside since you won't in fact be dual-rated.

[Joe_P148]

Lots of doom in gloom in here.

 

Yeah, there's less opportunities for FW guys right this minute but the junior warrants are gonna bump out the 4s and 5s in the next couple years.

 

Promotions are by airframe, not individual, so just like the UAV warrants, I forsee the W3 promotion board for fixed wing being very high, and the promotion rate for 4 and 5 being very low.

 

For you Brac, it's probably the best option going to the 64 they need pilots.

 

 

Ultimately the w4-w5 problem is an Army Aviation problem. When W5s stay stagnant they hold up the line for people to advance in their career. 4s can't move up and then the problem trickles down to everyone else.

 

The fix, across the board should be reviewing W5s performance every 2 years.

[Joe_P148]

Another thought: when we were briefed back in BOLC about the possibility of the Fixed Wing For Life program, we were told that if you selected a FW slot, you would NOT go through 60/47/64 AQC. You'd go straight to the fixed wing course. If that's correct, would you still get your rotary-wing CPL & IFR ratings? If not, well, that's a huge downside since you won't in fact be dual-rated.

Yes, You would still get the ratings because selection is still going to be after instruments and bws.

[brackac]

 

Promotions are by airframe, not individual, so just like the UAV warrants I forsee the W3 promotion board for fixed wing being at 100%.

Curious as why you think FW will be a 100% promotion rate for W3. That doesn't go with any of the trends or predictions coming out of HRC. If anything, FW will be the lowest promotion rate to W3.

[brackac]

Is that typically on option, brackac, to be able to move back to your rotary-wing platform? It was my understanding that it's nigh-impossible.

No, it's not generally an option, but Apache's are a hot topic at HRC, and I accepted a Battalion level job.

[Joe_P148]

Curious as why you think FW will be a 100% promotion rate for W3. That doesn't go with any of the trends or predictions coming out of HRC. If anything, FW will be the lowest promotion rate to W3.

Because they are gonna do the same thing they did in the Special Ops branch. Nuke the W5 board, boot out all the 4s tring to make 5. Move up some of the W3s and then open up 3 slots for 2s.

 

Ultimately it's the W5s that are screwing people.

 

Also I edited my post, 100% seemed too high, I think FW W3 boards will be very high in the next few years.

[brackac]

Because they are gonna do the same thing they did in the Special Ops branch. Nuke the W5 board, boot out all the 4s. Move up some of the W3s and then open up 3 slots for 2s.

 

Ultimately it's the W5s that are screwing people.

That might make for a good W3 promotion rate in 6 - 8 years, but for the next few years FW will be packed with new to mid-grade W3s, and FW is receiving a fresh group of W3s from the 58 community.

 

Now, with a community full of tracked W3s, what is a hard charging W2 suppose to do for career progression? Say what you want about "the best always excel", but FW is full of guys who look great on paper because of how FW was manned until recently, and a commander is going to slot a W3 into a tracked position before a new W2 almost every time.

[brackac]

For you Brac, it's probably the best option going to the 64 they need pilots.

 

 

I'm already a W3 who joined back in the early 90's, so I no longer do things for promotion purposes. W4 isn't a concern for me and I am guaranteed retirement. I am now taking jobs that are interesting, career enhancing, and challenging. In the FW community, my best options have been Staff related IE S3 Training Officer, but that's not what I want out of my career. I want to do Aviation related task as a Warrant, so I made the decision to go back to RW so I can do just that.