Second thoughts?

[Twadd]

I've got my whole package together save a SWO LOR, which is in the works. However, the more I read here and other forums, the more I wonder if this is going to be a mistake. 10 year ADSO and WO1 themselves do not bother me at all, but what bothers me are the constant comments about the culture, how the army treats aviation, and lack of actual flying. I want nothing more than to fly.

For background, I'm Active Air Force Security Forces E6. 12 AFS currently. Married, 3 kids. I'd gladly stay in to 23-25 years to fly, if it's enjoyable. But right now, 8 out of 10 pilots posts sound miserable and cannot wait to get out, and or wouldn't do it over again with the 10 year ADSO or WO1 reset.

I dont know what I'm looking for in posting this, but just getting it off my chest I guess. Trying to talk myself into or out of it. 

[zaurus]

There are more than a few former airman that made the transition. Some think it was a good move and others will say, why did I leave the AF.

There are AF F-22A, C-5M. A-10C pilots and others that can't wait in leaving the AF. But I don't think they are breaking down the doors in flying for the Army.

Every profession has a pecking order. I strongly believe active duty Army aviation should be your last option in being an Officer, pilot and a college grad.

In not having a college degree, give Army aviation your best shot. It's the best seat in the Army.

How badly do you want that bird's eye view from the cockpit?

Drop your packet and see if you're selected. It should be a pay raise for you and your family. The Army always have alternates if you decide in not going forward.

One last question, did you know about the Army WOFT program before going AF? Would that have made a difference?

Then again, you're asking for an opinion from someone who enjoys warm beer and a cold toilet seat in the morning. 

 

[SBuzzkill]

My experience in a CAB ended in 2016 when I left to be an OC at the National Training Center, so my perspective is a little out of date.  It may or may not be useful to you.

My worst year in the Army was the year after deployment.  It was 2014 and the Kiowa retirement had been announced, initial transition offers had been made and I didn't make the list.  In fact the majority of mid-grade untracked W2s ended up with nothing, no transition, no guidance, no nothing.  Just keep doing your job and we'll figure it out later.

After the transition list was finalized our community was immediately stripped of our most junior warrant officers as well as our most senior.  They were sent to transition courses and ended up in different airframes.  The workload on the unit did not decrease, rather those duties got assigned to any untracked aviator who still remained.

The divestment worked like this:  A unit would turn their aircraft in to the boneyard, do a 9 month rotation in Korea, and come back as either a reflagged Apache unit or simply *poof* the unit was gone.  Those with transitions would head to their new units and to Rucker, those without transitions would _________.  

Throughout the year and a half leading up to our rotation we got a new commander, were pushed hard into transitioning from COIN to near-peer decisive action, and were getting work piled on us left and right.  Coupled with the "you're going away, who cares" attitude from the rest of the brigade, morale was pretty low.  

I decided that year to transition out of the Army, that I wouldn't try to get promoted and retire.  I wasn't in a hurry to leave but the writing was on the wall that the Army wasn't in my future.  Once I relieved myself of the pressure to compete for OERs, PME, and advancement opportunities life became much better.  I turned down a track I didn't want, WOAC, etc.

I focused on being a pilot in command, air mission commander, and doing my part in the unit as well as I could.  It took about a year for my attitude to improve back to the level I was before all the punches to in the gut, but I got it back.  

As the units rotated through Korea the "leftovers" were sent to the next unit, and eventually we got back to being fully manned.  This time with relatively experienced aviators as all the newest folks had already left the community.  By the time we made it to Korea we had the best group of aviators I think the unit ever had.  It was a really great time.  Eventually I got in touch with my HRC manager and asked him what he was doing with us after we got back.  I told him as long as he could keep me flying I'd stick around.

Thus, I ended up at NTC.  It was a fantastic assignment, and I stayed in the Army as long as I possibly could before being forced out.  I was eventually offered an Apache transition, but like I said earlier, I had committed to transitioning out.  It was my way of having some control over things, and to be honest after 9 years I was looking forward to doing something a little bit more laid back.

The point of all this rambling is that the Army throws curveballs at you.  If you would have talked to me during 2014 you would have heard from the most miserable guy I have ever been.  It's really easy to fall into the "grass is greener" trap.  But I got through it, and I had the best few years of my career afterward.

 

 

[Lumin]

37 minutes ago, SBuzzkill said:

Thus, I ended up at NTC.  It was a fantastic assignment, and I stayed in the Army as long as I possibly could before being forced out.  I was eventually offered an Apache transition, but like I said earlier, I had committed to transitioning out.  It was my way of having some control over things, and to be honest after 9 years I was looking forward to doing something a little bit more laid back.

The point of all this rambling is that the Army throws curveballs at you.  If you would have talked to me during 2014 you would have heard from the most miserable guy I have ever been.  It's really easy to fall into the "grass is greener" trap.  But I got through it, and I had the best few years of my career afterward.

 

 

Two things - could you expand upon your experiences at the NTC? I would love to get stationed there due to proximity to family. Second - had you been offered a different airframe would you have stayed or did you simply just decide that it was time. 

[SBuzzkill]

With the same timing that I was offered the Apache?  No, I would have left no matter what they were offering me. I had a new baby, an airline job offer, and an opportunity to move home.  Easy choice.  If I would have been allowed a fixed wing transition or CH-47 on the original go around?  I don't know, but I can tell you I have no regrets about anything I have done.

NTC...  I'm not sure.  Are you trying to get there as a UH-60 pilot or UH-72 pilot?  OC?

In context of the OC job.  You're on the rotation schedule, so life is very predictable throughout the year.  You know when you're going to have days off and when you're going to work 12 months in advance.  You will be home every night or day, depending on which shift you're on.  The one exception is being assigned bunker duty during live fire.  A few nights in a bunk bed every few months.  No big deal.

You'll work for 3 straight weeks, no day off.  Then you'll get a couple long weekends with easy work weeks and start all over.  While I was there the mentality between rotations was show up, do whatever work you have, and get out of there as soon as you're done.  The unit was small, and we didn't deal with stuff regular units had to.  There was no range qualifications, very few formation runs, no endless classes, none of that.  Just rotations, recovery, and preparing for the next rotation.

We'd have a BBQ on every training day 14, as soon as the end of the rotation was announced and the birds were buttoned up.  Families would come out, food would be on the table, and we'd hang out until dark celebrating.

The flying was challenging.  Flying solo NVG in red illumination, aircraft everywhere, ROZs and gun target lines during live fire with only a paper map and lat/long GPS, winds and turbulence in the mountains, dust landings, pinnacles, ridge lines you can't see in the dark, fast moving weather, confined areas, etc.  It was not a place I would want to be a new aviator in, in fact some of the nights at NTC surpassed even Afghanistan in stress and difficulty.  VERY different place than JRTC.

But for all the crappy nights there were great days.  The flying area is excellent, so much variety and everything is fair game.  That's about all I can think to say about the flying without being asked more specific questions.

When it comes to life outside of work it is what you make of it.  You're going to want to live on post, because it's a 30 minute drive into the desert after leaving Barstow.  There wasn't anything special about the base when it came to amenities, but I really enjoyed living there.  The house I lived in was relatively nice and very close to the commissary.  Plenty of long weekends to get off base and go visit some of the great destinations around SoCal.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by SBuzzkill

[Black Sheep 13]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:28 PM, Twadd said:

I've got my whole package together save a SWO LOR, which is in the works. However, the more I read here and other forums, the more I wonder if this is going to be a mistake. 10 year ADSO and WO1 themselves do not bother me at all, but what bothers me are the constant comments about the culture, how the army treats aviation, and lack of actual flying. I want nothing more than to fly.

For background, I'm Active Air Force Security Forces E6. 12 AFS currently. Married, 3 kids. I'd gladly stay in to 23-25 years to fly, if it's enjoyable. But right now, 8 out of 10 pilots posts sound miserable and cannot wait to get out, and or wouldn't do it over again with the 10 year ADSO or WO1 reset.

I dont know what I'm looking for in posting this, but just getting it off my chest I guess. Trying to talk myself into or out of it. 

I don't know what to tell you. I know if you go somewhere like Fort Bragg, you'll likely get to fly a LOT, but also spend a lot of time away from your family. It's a tradeoff. If you can get into fixed wing, the army has an overworked force of C-22 pilots, etc. that work through the CASA program that schedules their little fixed wing to transport people all over the country. Spend a lot of time away from home, for the day, but not out of the country. Or you could become an instructor and move to Fort Rucker... otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. I loved flying too, but not the Army.

[Black Sheep 13]

On 2/12/2009 at 4:09 PM, brannon said:

I'm considering applying to be a Helicopter pilot in the Army. For those in the know, please tell me a bit about life as an Army pilot.

 

One of my greatest concerns is that I have a 2yr old daughter, how often would I be able to see her?

First you go to Fort Rucker for a year (after basic training that is). You CAN bring your family, and live off post. At least I think you still can, we certainly had people that did that. Once you go to your new unit, choose carefully. Places like Fort Bragg of course are constantly getting deployed, but actually places you wouldn't expect get sent as well, to fill in. If you get in a Huey unit (do they still have those?) probably won't be deployed that much. Black Hawks and Chinooks are universally deployed. Not sure AH-64s get deployed that much, only when things get serious. Best bet is to go fixed wing. Yes, Army has fixed wing. C-22s, fly VIPs around.  I loved flying  helos, loved, some of the units I was in. Didn't love others. Good news in, it's only 3 years wherever you end up, and only 3 years that your douchebag leadership will be in charge of you. It changes, constantly. Not a bad idea to just take a family tour to Korea or something.  

[It_is_Monday]

To be fair , my impression is that there are a large portion of incoming aviators that have the delusion that they are going to be Nic Cage x Maverick and be rockstars. Or coming from low work intensity MOS's like infantry where if you aren't in the field training or training in general there realistically isn't a whole hell of a lot to do other than ''clean the motor pool/AO". 

I'm coming from signal and have been shadowing at the CAB's maintenance platoon for around six months give or take and it is BUSY and stays that way. I know exactly what I'm getting into when I depart Rucker and I'm managing expectations accordingly. I will retire from the Army regardless of my MOS, so I am going to take all I can get from the Army in return - it is damn sure going to take what it can from me.

[Dak13b]

5 hours ago, It_is_Monday said:

To be fair , my impression is that there are a large portion of incoming aviators that have the delusion that they are going to be Nic Cage x Maverick and be rockstars. Or coming from low work intensity MOS's like infantry where if you aren't in the field training or training in general there realistically isn't a whole hell of a lot to do other than ''clean the motor pool/AO". 

I'm coming from signal and have been shadowing at the CAB's maintenance platoon for around six months give or take and it is BUSY and stays that way. I know exactly what I'm getting into when I depart Rucker and I'm managing expectations accordingly. I will retire from the Army regardless of my MOS, so I am going to take all I can get from the Army in return - it is damn sure going to take what it can from me.

Ur saying signal is more intense than Infantry?…….i dont even know what to say to that. Im at a loss for words

[Twadd]

Thanks for the advice guys. I went for it and was selected. 

[RouterRanger]

2 hours ago, Dak13b said:

Ur saying signal is more intense than Infantry?…….i dont even know what to say to that. Im at a loss for words

I mean...it is. I am coming from Signal in the 82nd. We are with the infantry guys through all of their training, live fires, and lanes; even some of the patrols if you're an RTO. Not only do you have the maintain the soldiering skills, but you're carrying MANY extra pounds of commo equipment and are expected to be proficient in it. And then theres maintaining jump status, and JUMPING that equipment. Signal often SEEMS like the cush route, and in many respects it can be, but truth be told, you're more of a full-spectrum warrior (no pun intended) than an infantryman (who is really one dimensional) and thats the truth whether you like it or not.

The reality is, if you go to any of the bigger FORSCOM units, you WILL. BE. FLYING. Aviation is needed everywhere, and its an asset that isn't going away anytime soon as is integral to the success of many units and their missions. 

Being at Rucker now, you can bring your family, the classes are challenging and fun, and 90% of the dudes in your class are MOTIVATED and WANT to be there. Every person i've spoken to in regards to the cohort and the job as a whole have given positive feed back; but what blacksheep said still reigns true. If you're coming off an uber-cush assignment, be prepared to drink from the fire hose.

[Thedude]

Comparing signal to real soldiers is pretty hilarious. 

[It_is_Monday]

I never compared signal to infantry or said signal was hard. My comparison was simply that in signal you are doing your MOS focus more regularly than infantry. Hence - infantry where if you aren't in the field training or training in general there realistically isn't a whole hell of a lot to do other than ''clean the motor pool/AO"

11 hours ago, Thedude said:

Comparing signal to real soldiers is pretty hilarious. 

And I hate to be the one to tell you, if you still have the mind set that abc MOS is a real soldier and xyz MOS is not.... You need to reevaluate your thought process. I did more door kicking and room clearing drills as a 88M in my time in the reserves than two buddies of mine that are currently 11b/c have done in two active contracts. One of them legitimately did not know what a glass house drill was.

 

That said the majority of signal and MI is filled with soldiers that cant be trusted to walk and talk at the same time unsupervised.

[It_is_Monday]

13 hours ago, Twadd said:

Thanks for the advice guys. I went for it and was selected. 

That’s awesome man! Glad this wasn’t necro’d just for bickering over semantics 😂

[Thedude]

I'm not impressed at all that a truck driver in the reserves did room clearing drills. An 88M has absolutely no business ever clearing any kind of room. Everyone in the Army is called a soldier, not everyone is actually a Soldier who's only purpose for being in the Army is to be a Soldier and go to war. Truck drivers are important, can't do the job without them bringing the sh*t we need. Supply/S1 clerks are important, can't do that job without getting paid and having the stuff ordered that we need. They aren't Soldiers.

sh*t, I'm a pog bitch now as a pilot and I enjoy it quite a bit over being a Soldier in the real Army not in cush aviation land. 

This kind of talk is way more fun in person with a beer than over the internet though. 

[It_is_Monday]

 

Not here to impress anyone but I can get behind that - inflection matters.

I just hate being misunderstood and wanted to clarify that I was talking about the optempo/consistency of work being different. Agree to disagree and all that 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[RouterRanger]

4 hours ago, Thedude said:

I'm not impressed at all that a truck driver in the reserves did room clearing drills. An 88M has absolutely no business ever clearing any kind of room. Everyone in the Army is called a soldier, not everyone is actually a Soldier who's only purpose for being in the Army is to be a Soldier and go to war. Truck drivers are important, can't do the job without them bringing the sh*t we need. Supply/S1 clerks are important, can't do that job without getting paid and having the stuff ordered that we need. They aren't Soldiers.

sh*t, I'm a pog bitch now as a pilot and I enjoy it quite a bit over being a Soldier in the real Army not in cush aviation land. 

This kind of talk is way more fun in person with a beer than over the internet though. 

This dude is a total chach. I guess it depends on the unit I guess, but some commo/s1/truck drivers are just as capable if not moreso than someone whos MOS is less POG'ish. I've met some autistic 11B's

[Twadd]

7 hours ago, It_is_Monday said:

That’s awesome man! Glad this wasn’t necro’d just for bickering over semantics 😂

I tried to get it back on track....but doesn't seem to be working 😕 lmao

[RouterRanger]

I had to! TBH I didn't even realize the date, I forgot this forum isn't super active. My B

[Eeyore]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:20 PM, Twadd said:

Thanks for the advice guys. I went for it and was selected. 

Congrats on the selection! How's it going? I'm selected but waiting on an age waiver for the Guard.

[Twadd]

On 6/14/2022 at 12:05 PM, Eeyore said:

Congrats on the selection! How's it going? I'm selected but waiting on an age waiver for the Guard.

I report to Rucker Tuesday and start WOCs 28 July. So still working on it lol.

[Eeyore]

1 hour ago, Twadd said:

I report to Rucker Tuesday and start WOCs 28 July. So still working on it lol.

Thats great to hear! I'm so ready to go. Have fun dude.

[StockTrader]

20 hours ago, Twadd said:

I report to Rucker Tuesday and start WOCs 28 July. So still working on it lol.

Its hot as balls here right now.  Get ready for 100 degree temps lol.