What a fine institution.

[R22139RJ]

 

Riiiiiiiiiight..... Lol

 

U win, let's keep it on topic.

Edited March 16, 2015 by R22139RJ

[Spike]

The Fed’s only pay approximately $1,137.40 for an AS350 on an EU or CWN fire contract…..

[Mikemv]

All of this flight training for Vets may come to an end.

 

 

114TH CONGRESS

1ST SESSION H. R. 476

To amend title 38, United States Code, to clarify the process of approving

courses of education pursued using educational benefits administered

by the Secretary of Veterans Affairs, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

JANUARY 22, 2015

Mr. WENSTRUP introduced the following bill; which was referred to the

Committee on Veterans’ Affairs

A BILL

[Mikemv]

There are a lot of emails flying around the industry to caring people about this HR 476 Bill.

 

Typically our Govt. sets up easy abuses and now wants to pull everything from deserving veterans.

 

My suggestion would be something like:

 

 

If we look at a reasonable cost of VA flight training for a career helicopter pilot and plan for some over run due to PT differences and in fairness to offer the benefit to all Vets, it would not be unreasonable to limit the flight training to:

piston helicopters

$ 160,000 max including ground school -Heavy pilots that must fly a R44 need to apply themselves to reach minimum times required.

Pvt. limited to max 70 hours to stop "just playing around"

IFR limited to 55 hours

Commercial to 160 hours total including Pvt. & IFR

CFI & CFII to 50 hours

Total 210 hours

Meet SFAR 73 for R22, R44

Schools would have to have valid programs to be competitive and get PTs thru the training.

College or University degree program funds could be in addition to the flt. trng. funds. but not used for flight training.

Turbine, NVG, Long line programs are not required as repeatedly stated by employers at Heli Success.

Mike

[eagle5]

Can't heavy students fly the S300, instead of the 44, or has that trainer gone the way of the Dodo?

[Mikemv]

Can't heavy students fly the S300, instead of the 44, or has that trainer gone the way of the Dodo?

Heavy PT's could fly a S300 if the school has one.

 

How many 141 VA schools have them?

 

What is the job opportunity for S300 CFII's?

 

This has been discussed here before.

[Flying Pig]

$160K for flight school is a reasonable max? As an 8yr vet myself it floors me that a admin clerk who spends an entire enlistment never leaving the U.S. gets the same benefits as a grunt with a silver star and a Purple Heart. No, I don't believe the state side admin person rates a $200,000 education incentive.

[eagle5]

Heavy PT's could fly a S300 if the school has one.

 

How many 141 VA schools have them?

 

What is the job opportunity for S300 CFII's?

 

This has been discussed here before.

If these schools purchased S300s instead of 44s, 206s, and Astars, there'd be plenty of cfii work in them!

 

...but then they wouldn't make as much money would they?

Edited March 17, 2015 by eagle5

[Mikemv]

If these schools purchased S300s instead of 44s, 206s, and Astars, there'd be plenty of cfii work in them!

 

...but then they wouldn't make as much money would they?

How could these schools find S300's to purchase and how could they maintain them?

 

This is not a viable option for flight training.

[eagle5]

How could these schools find S300's to purchase and how could they maintain them?

 

This is not a viable option for flight training.

So then the S300 has gone the way of the Dodo,.. shame.

[Whiteshadow]

I knew eventually someone would take the "don't you dare say anything bad about the poor vets!" route. News for ya, I am a vet. 2 combat tours, Purple Heart, and plenty of lost brothers. Nobody on this thread ever said that vets don't deserve this training, in fact I believe we are all saying the opposite. We want the greed to stop so that all future veterans will have the same incredible opportunity. I cannot make it more clear than that. There is one thing that I find interesting, and it validates my point that vets are part of the problem:

 

The only people who seem to want these greedy schools to be left alone..........are vets!

 

Let that sink in. Veterans screwing future veterans for their own shortsightedness (which they don't seem to understand will not get them any further up the ladder than I, who trained in a S300 and R44).

 

Terminal_velo: Excellent points, and very well spoken!

 

MikeMV, thank you for your excellent and informative contribution as always.

 

Full Disclosure: I hate to admit it, but I was once blinded and dazzled by what ULA was offering. I was very close to enrolling there. Thankfully my conscience pointed the way. I could not be moving along in my career any more satisfactorily, and all without training in an Astar. Go figure.

[A-aron]

I think one thing angle that has not been brought up is privately funded students. In my opinion all schools make sure to use the VA benefits to their fullest, maybe not quite to offering complete commercial training in a turbine, but at least some sort of "extra" that is only really beneficial. What I am curious about is how much the cost of flight training has gone up since people could start using VA benefits. If a a school is going to charge more money because they know the VA will pay it, that hurts the people without VA money.

 

I also would expect just about everyone to be dazzled by getting your training in an Astar or 206, or even an R66. The way I see it is many vets really have no idea how the industry works, and the school is likely doing a good job at selling this extra expensive training. When in reality having the R22 and R44 time is actually more beneficial for those entry level jobs as instructors.

[Whiteshadow]

A-aron, you are correct in my opinion. Certainly about the vets not knowing how the industry works. I have talked to several veteran students during my training time, who thought they would stop at Commercial and go out and work fires or utility. Most of them accept reality after enough people tell them how it works. But some of them forge ahead (or don't forge ahead?) and roll the dice after Commercial. I know only one guy who got his Commercial and 2 weeks later had a (SIC) job. He knew he wasn't CFI material, and I can appreciate that he was honest about it. However, landing that job with a paper Commercial ticket was solely because he met exactly the right people.

[eagle5]

Do these schools really think they can get away with raping the government and tax payers forever? Eventually the "right" person is going to take notice and (hopefully) force them to pay us that money back!?...right?...eventually?

[Flying Pig]

Nobody will pay anything back. The program will just go away or revert back to the old 60/40 plan that put thousands and thousands of vets through school before 9/11.

[gary-mike]

I can. The vets are part of the problem. The vets chose which school they attend and who gets that big VA windfall. If the vets took a minute to stop and care about the money their spending, as if it was their own, crooks like Upper Limit wouldn't have a chance.

 

 

 

 

There are schools all over of the country, most of them ethical. Nobody has to go to Upper Limit.

 

 

 

I haven't seen a single person in this thread say that vets don't earn the GI Bill. We're talking about how they chose to use (and abuse) it. Come on now, follow along.

 

Long story short, ULA has proven, time and time again, how much of a joke they are. Any vet who goes there and commits $300,000 of the VA's money to that program is either completely ignorant, or a selfish prick who's just out to get theirs. They don't care about the longevity of the GI Bill funding flight training. Anyone who chooses to instruct there is even worse.

 

I hope ULA gets cut off from VA money. I hope it happens swiftly and with no warning. I'd love to see that company go under. That way they can stop abusing the VA, stop crashing helicopters, and stop misleading people.

 

It'd be a good day for the industry, and would make me very happy. The sooner the better.

And I'm sure that would make your company look so much better.

 

It would be a whole lot different if ULA didn't make good on their word, but tell me about other schools that have over 90% employment rate, he'll, they have hired from outside since I've known. And the video about going from training to EMS, etc. maybe a bit misleading but I know of multiple people that have done that ( after instructing for required hrs).

 

Ula no longer has a 205 either, so you can drop the $3500 an hr figure

[gary-mike]

All this biased rhetoric directed toward one school. ULA has been forward and honest about their prices, the VA looks at the program and decides weather it is acceptable before they ever agree to allow funding for a program. They are running a business, and they have a business plan that is working for both, them, and their students, better than the majority of other schools.

 

Many on this forum know that I researched for years before starting, all suggestions said go to the school that can provide the best opportunity to be hired and had good student flow....guess the tables have turned?

[terminal_velo]

It would be a whole lot different if ULA didn't make good on their word, but tell me about other schools that have over 90% employment rate, he'll, they have hired from outside since I've known.

 

If they're picking up everything but the bottom 10% of the graduates, plus the people whose own schools didn't want to hire them, what does that say about the quality of the instructional staff?

 

Either way, it doesn't take a $600,000 education to be qualified for a CFI job. Upper Limit is blatantly abusing the rules in place. Even a 100% hiring rate wouldn't change that. Hiring rate is completely irrelevant.

 

Ula no longer has a 205 either, so you can drop the $3500 an hr figure

 

Yea, let's sweep that under the rug and forget about it.

 

They are running a business, and they have a business plan that is working for both, them, and their students, better than the majority of other schools.

 

Yeah, of course it's working good for their students and wonderful for them, they're blatantly abusing it!

 

Anyone involved with that school should be ashamed of themselves. I'm sorry you don't want to hear that.

[eagle5]

...and what happens to little Joey who just got out, but cannot fulfill his dream of becoming a pilot because ULA spent all the VA money on uneccessary, and overpriced training for just a few, and so the VA cancelled funding for flying?

[Whiteshadow]

That's exactly what gets me so mad about it Eagle5. The veterans who are using it now know damn well they don't need that type of helicopter to train in. They like to justify it by saying things like, "I'm doing what's best for my family" or "I earned it, so I'm going to take it". The next recently discharged vets don't also want to do what's best for their family? They didn't also earn it?

 

I just don't understand how a veteran can try to justify using so much VA money, and then claim that others are against the veterans. You veterans attending these programs are only looking out for yourselves, and are the ones who are hurting other veterans! All the while claiming to be so proud of the "brotherhood" of veterans you belong to. If that's how you treat your brothers..........

 

It's really simple. Take only what you need, and that means there will be some for the next people who could use it. There are a lot of great 141 schools out there, that only charge what is fair and realistic.

 

I don't know why I am bothering to add to this topic anymore. It's clear that some of the people who are taking advantage of this greed are not interested in admitting that they should not be feeding the monster. It's going to come back and bite us all. Thankfully, I am in a position to actually be moving ahead in the industry. I just feel bad for the people after me, who will not be so fortunate.

[SgtRandom801]

That's exactly what gets me so mad about it Eagle5. The veterans who are using it now know damn well they don't need that type of helicopter to train in. They like to justify it by saying things like, "I'm doing what's best for my family" or "I earned it, so I'm going to take it". The next recently discharged vets don't also want to do what's best for their family? They didn't also earn it?

We know very well we don't need this training and most don't want this training, we don't need to be trained in an Astar just to go on teaching in R22s and R44s for the next year to two years at least. The problem is that we don't want to bite the hand that feeds us. You have to remember that most schools hire from their student pool, unless of course what I've been told is incorrect? Why would we upset our future employer when it is just easier to please them? And if it was such a huge concern for the VA, then why don't they come out with terms for the funding, like no turbine time?

 

I just don't understand how a veteran can try to justify using so much VA money, and then claim that others are against the veterans. You veterans attending these programs are only looking out for yourselves, and are the ones who are hurting other veterans! All the while claiming to be so proud of the "brotherhood" of veterans you belong to. If that's how you treat your brothers..........

It is very clear that you and Terminal_Velo have this straight clear cut thinking that the vets are the ones to blame. The ones to blame are these flight schools pushing and charging the cost for the training. The vets are just trying to make a career with whats provided, and I will not wreck my future just because private pay guys can't compete with VA funding. If a private pay guys wants his education paid for then maybe he should go serve 4 tours in 4 years.

 

 

It's really simple. Take only what you need, and that means there will be some for the next people who could use it. There are a lot of great 141 schools out there, that only charge what is fair and realistic.

There are only a few that the VA will pay using Post 9/11 and every single one of them offer turbine training.

 

The problem is not the vets "feeding the monster" its the VA feeding the monster. If the VA had rules that limit the spending or flight costs then this wouldn't be an issue. These SCHOOLS are exploiting the benefits of Vets. Maybe instead of attacking vets you should be writing the VA or Congress to pass new rules/laws that opens up flight training to any flight school, and to also limit training in piston engines. Then you would see a decrease in costs, because as Supply and demand work, if there is a surplus of supply (more schools competing for business) then the cost goes down. And with prices going down then there will also be more private pay students.

[Wally]

SgtRandom801 said

"We know very well we don't need this training and most don't want this training, we don't need to be trained in an Astar just to go on teaching in R22s and R44s for the next year to two years at least. The problem is that we don't want to bite the hand that feeds us."

 

Brother, there are some people you don't want to work for or with. A business built on screwing those who pay the bill and those who benefit from the service is staggering, the owners are bleeding it until it dies.

They've demonstrated the moral tone pretty well. You think what you know is the only business practice in the shade? You will be thrown under the bus when that's necessary to keep the cash flowing and the business going. If you think it's tough finding a job as a brand new pilot, try finding a job as a new pilot with a blot on your record for the load that was dumped on you.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Wally

[apacheguy]

Again for the slow people, the VA examined and approved these schools and these payments. The problem lies solely with the VA, and by extension, the Congress that funds it. Blaming schools or vets is ridiculous.

 

http://www.teaparty.org/17000-federal-employees-made-200000-last-year-85559/

 

Most of the high paid federal workers are in the VA. Big surprise there. The VA is a self sustaining monster bureaucracy at this point, clearly not doing what we intended it to do.

 

Call your congressman and complain, that's literally your only course of action if you find this situation so horrible.

[Pohi]

Calling congressman is practically all a person can do, it's not literally all a person can do.

 

In an ideal world, people would show some decency and not abuse the system and screw the people after them, but we don't live in an ideal world. Individual people can make changes, they don't need government to hold their hand and make every choice for them.

[eagle5]

Again for the slow people, the VA examined and approved these schools and these payments. The problem lies solely with the VA, and by extension, the Congress that funds it. Blaming schools or vets is ridiculous.

 

http://www.teaparty.org/17000-federal-employees-made-200000-last-year-85559/

 

Most of the high paid federal workers are in the VA. Big surprise there. The VA is a self sustaining monster bureaucracy at this point, clearly not doing what we intended it to do.

 

Call your congressman and complain, that's literally your only course of action if you find this situation so horrible.

 

Not long ago my boss handed me a check on payday. I told him "remember I wasn't here last week" and gave him back the check.

 

Yeah you sure as hell can blame these schools!...but yes someone at the VA needs to be fired for not bothering to adequately research the industry in which they were spending our money!

Edited March 18, 2015 by eagle5