Spike Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 With the newly minted privates on the premises, let’s consider the following hypothetical: As a new private copter jock, all of the usual family and friends are jacked to get an airborne vibe-a-ride. However, your future training funds are limited and “joy rides” are most likely out of the question. With that, Joe Buddy says, “I’ll pay for ride!” With the 200 hour dark tunnel looming in the distance, if Joe volunteers to pay the full cost of the rental, can you take him when and where he wants to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think you have to split the cost 50/50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superstallion6113 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Most def have to split the costs evenly between all the occupants of the aircraft, pro rata share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridethisbike Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Strictly speaking, no, you have to pay your half, third, quarter... whatever your share is. But lets put a twist on it... What if you did something for said friend... lets say you fixed his car for him under the agreement that your payment would be your share of the flight? Can you take him then? There's just so many ways to twist it to work in your favor it's not even funny. Furthermore, nowhere you rent from is going to ask questions and I wonder if the FAA would really care. Truth be told, I think they put this rule into place to make sure a private pilot doesn't work the system in a way that he just made money off the flight. Actual cost: $350. I tell my friend $400. I just got paid to carry a passenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred0311 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I knew a guy who got into trouble with his fbo because his passenger said hey should I pay you my half now? After the pilot paid for the rental. Nothing really came of it but the fbo had a heart to heart with him later. I don't know the regs yet being prestudent but I'll guess it's a no go after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I knew a guy who got into trouble with his fbo because his passenger said hey should I pay you my half now? After the pilot paid for the rental. Nothing really came of it but the fbo had a heart to heart with him later. I don't know the regs yet being prestudent but I'll guess it's a no go after that. Why would he get in trouble? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Double post Edited August 14, 2012 by rotormandan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 With the newly minted privates on the premises, let’s consider the following hypothetical: As a new private copter jock, all of the usual family and friends are jacked to get an airborne vibe-a-ride. However, your future training funds are limited and “joy rides” are most likely out of the question. With that, Joe Buddy says, “I’ll pay for ride!” With the 200 hour dark tunnel looming in the distance, if Joe volunteers to pay the full cost of the rental, can you take him when and where he wants to go? A joy ride shouldn't be out of the question if the ppl makes it count towards something. At least a x-c. It takes some planning a head by reading future requirements but the rental w/out cfi should actually save some $. After saying that, I still burned some extra joy ride time even after planning ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippiesdrainage Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 The pilot has to pay AT LEAST his pro rated share. The FAA doesn't care if the pilot pays for everything. If you want to avoid hassel just give the pilot your share or whatever before the flight to avoid the complication of saying it at the counter while renting an aircraft. Take your buddys money for the rental call it an early birthday present and then use it to rent the aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 If your Dad is paying for your flight training, and one day after your PPL he wants to go for a ride, are you really paying for it anyway? Besides, there's plenty of room between PPL and CFII at 200hrs for joy riding using your training funds,...plenty! Personally, I don't understand why a PPL wouldn't be able to have a friend pay for the flight, a stranger sure, but friends and family,...there's no deception going on there! Why would the FAA care if my friend wants to go for a ride, and pay for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 It's not YOUR helicopter and YOU aren't being paid in any way...so fly away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBuzzkill Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Nope, the reg includes sharing rental fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helipilot PTK Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I understand that you are required by the FAA to pay your pro rata share, and I will not violate the regs including this one in any way. Seriously though, just don't make the exchange at the airport! If your Dad is paying for your flight training, and one day after your PPL he wants to go for a ride, are you really paying for it anyway? A very good point. Again I am not saying you should violate regs, only that there is no way for the FAA to enforce this reg, only if you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. Like said before, have him give you the money before or after you are at the airport. They don't have spies watching every pilots moves. I thought of this scenarios a while back relating to 61.113 © reg. What if you give rides to 9 people, are you allowed to split the cost 10 ways? so if it cost $300 for the hour, you would only have to pay $30 since that would be the pro rata share of everyone combined? Or is that the wrong meaning of "pro rata share"? Does it only relate to how many people the helicopter can carry at one time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 The spirit of the FAR is that a private pilot not enjoy the privileges of a commercial pilot. Compensation or hire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Let's say a private pilot is training at a school, and the owner of the school wants to ferry his helicopter up to his vacation home so he can use it while he is there, but he doesn't want to fly it the 5 hours it's going to take to get there so he asks the private pilot to do it for him. The owner pays fuel, let's the private pilot stay at his house, and pays for the fuel on the ferry flight home. Is that considered compensation (free flight hours) or hire, even though the private pilot actually gained no money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) One would think the rule is easy to interpret just by the shared expenses declaration. However, if not careful, some may find themselves operating real close to the “C” word. Take the portion of sentence which says; “can you take him when and where he wants to go?”. If you do fly him, this could be considered as compensation (C-word) just by the fact you’re bagging the flight time to take Joe when and where he wants to go. This is regardless of sharing expenses…. No lunches, dinners, hotel rooms, rounds of golf or nights on the town just because Maverick has a new pilot’s license and he flew us to funtown…… Compensation can be anything, not just cash…. When sharing expenses, the purpose of the flight must be of the pilots doing and not facilitated by a passenger who want to go somewhere…. Edited August 14, 2012 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Let's say a private pilot is training at a school, and the owner of the school wants to ferry his helicopter up to his vacation home so he can use it while he is there, but he doesn't want to fly it the 5 hours it's going to take to get there so he asks the private pilot to do it for him. The owner pays fuel, let's the private pilot stay at his house, and pays for the fuel on the ferry flight home. Is that considered compensation (free flight hours) or hire, even though the private pilot actually gained no money? I would say yes, but since you don't have to log it, maybe no?,...then again apparently no one ever looks at logbooks anyway, so who cares? So, is the paid fuel and free night stay compensation? I suppose they could see it that way? Sorry Joe, I can't let you pay for the flight, but I've made some pp & j sandwiches for lunch, want one,...they're only $300 a piece? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCM5 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I believe the correct procedure is as follows: -Charge the passenger for all expenses plus a fee-Cover your tail number-Stay off the radio-Fly low and just below Vne so as not to be easily identified Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamer Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I believe the correct procedure is as follows: -Charge the passenger for all expenses plus a fee-Cover your tail number-Stay off the radio-Fly low and just below Vne so as not to be easily identified PERFECT!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 If its a good friend, tell him the deal and if he wants to pay for the whole flight, make it work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmark1 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Double the cost and have him pay half. But only if you own the helicopter. In which case the doubled cost will probably be closer to reality than you are willing to admit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 (edited) I believe the correct procedure is as follows: -Charge the passenger for all expenses plus a fee-Cover your tail number-Stay off the radio-Fly low and just below Vne so as not to be easily identified Umm..don't forget about the transponder....they do have serial numbers you know! Seriously, be very careful about the word "compensation". The FAA holds a pretty wide interpretation of that word. Edited August 15, 2012 by Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted August 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 (edited) A March 1995 article by AOPA’s Mr. Yodice regarding Sharing Expenses. This should clear up any misinterpretations and be a guide of how to do it correctly, and legally… Edited October 1, 2020 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Make all transactions in cash and make sure a proper brief is given to your passengers (read, everyone's on the same page) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridethisbike Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Spike, what if the passengers didn't pay a single dime. Would that be allowed? I only ask as the devils advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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