Long Line, NVG, Tour Ops, or Advanced Turbine?

[VulcanAres]

My school is adding 4 new classes to their program. Long line, NVG ops, part 135 tour ops, and advanced turbine flight. However, Veterans Affairs is considering these electives and saying we can only choose one of the four for the GI Bill to pay for. As a student, which option would be the best to go with for the future?

[helonorth]

Skip the turbine and I have no idea what they could teach you about tours. The NVG endorsement wouldn't hurt but neither would some VR training. I would do the longline training as the NVG endorsement is not really expected and it doesn't involve much training.

[pilot#476398]

By the time you have the hours to do any of those jobs, you'll have either forgotten what they taught you, or be so rusty that you'll have to be trained all over again! Even part 135 training (whatever that is) is useless until you have at least 500 hours! Advanced turbine flight, does that come after a turbine intro, or something?

 

Which is more laughable, a 1000 hour pilot, who 3 years ago got a handfull of hours long lining, NVG, or turbine! All wastes of money!

 

What is up with this school?

[Flying Pig]

For an entry level, I would say all three are useless. After 120days, you are NVG non-current anyway. 5-7hrs of NVG time, and then going a few years without flying on them it wont even matter. I have about 450hrs of NVG time and when I go on vacation for 2 weeks and come back to work and it takes a minute to get settled in with them.

 

Can you just save the money and put it towards just good ol' time building doing night c-ctry?

 

Advanced turbine ops? Thats pretty funny. Long line is even silly. But OK..... if you have to pick one, Id do the NVG if it were me.

[Dnr032]

For an entry level, I would say all three are useless. After 120days, you are NVG non-current anyway. 5-7hrs of NVG time, and then going a few years without flying on them it wont even matter. I have about 450hrs of NVG time and when I go on vacation for 2 weeks and come back to work and it takes a minute to get settled in with them.

 

Can you just save the money and put it towards just good ol' time building doing night c-ctry?

 

Advanced turbine ops? Thats pretty funny. Long line is even silly. But OK..... if you have to pick one, Id do the NVG if it were me.

I second what Flying Pig said (since the "like post" does not show anymore).

[Wally]

If I had the money to throw away, I'd do the long line training. I would guess you wouldn't have utility operators banging at your door after the training (and even IF, I suspect you would be retrained to their satisfaction), but it's a further perspective and a refinement on control manipulation skills. If I had money to throw away...

[RagMan]

I agree that from a flight school training aspect, it's useless to get such time at such an early point in a pilot's career. I look at it as more of a taste of flying outside of the typical flight school training environment; A taste for the student to see what some commercial operations are like away from flying robinsons day in and day out performing typical maneuvers. The flight schools see it as money; The VA sees it as additional training to prepare new pilots for the commercial market of flying.

 

Our school, Leading Edge Aviation in Bend, Oregon also have a Turbine transition course, but it is broke down into either flying a block of hours for long line or mountain flying. It's a 20 hour course with the first 5 hours doing the "transition" into the Bell 206B3, and the remaining 15 spent on either ACTUALLY flying up around the mountains, or putting the line on and flying external load. Intially we were suppose to have our B206BIII outfitted for NVG, but we ended up outfitting one of our R44 RII's for it instead due to cheaper costs. The students who sign up for the turbine course (which is part of our degree requirements) get to choose one of the sub categories of training (ie. longline or mountain flying).

 

I'm not sure what the idea behind the "Part 135 Tour ops course" would be, other than like I stated above, a little taste of what commercial operations are like outside of the flight school environment for the student.

 

I personally threw the long line on when I did my transition training and had an absolute blast with it. Even got to log a few hours in one of our Long Rangers.

Edited April 6, 2013 by RagMan

[helonorth]

You (or uncle Sugar) paid for 20 hours of 206 time? I won't gloss over it: that's a total waste of tax payer money. There is no such thing as a "turbine transition" other than when somebody hires you to fly one. Nobody that hires you is going to a rip about 20 hours in a turbine unless it was at the factory. The "turbine transition" is the biggest rip off there is in flight training and it sound like this place has taken that to a new level. No surprise they require it.

Edited April 6, 2013 by helonorth

[pilot#476398]

It would seems that these schools are having difficulty in convincing newbies that they should do all their training in the R44, so now we have this new scam!

 

The VA should really find a civillian pilot to be in charge of approving these schools, because its obvious that whoever they have now doesn't know sh*t about civillian training and/or entry level commercial flying!

 

A 20 hour turbine course as a requirement?...run away! run away! RUN AWAY!

[Astro]

As long as we're on the subject of training that is of absolutely no value to the entry-level pilot, I'd like to spend 20hrs in a Cobra blowing sh*t up!

 

Instead of wasting huge amounts of money getting a "taste" of a job you might get to do 5 years from now, how about spending that time (and far less money) in an R-22 working on your teaching techniques and touchdown autorotations? Things you'll actually have use for!

[mrjibbs]

Yeah, all of those courses are pointless to waste money on. As previously stated, once you are at the level to do that sort of work, whoever hires you will put the time and training into getting you to fly to their specifications. As someone said, a few hours of LL sounds cool, and I looked into it too when i was there, but a couple years down the road when it actually comes time to do it, those motor skills will have diminished and you'll be a ground zero all over again.

 

Best thing you could possibly do would be to spend those funds on advanced maneuvers training (Like Simon's in the 44 at the factory course) or even a mountain course. As badly as you want to fly a turbine right now, pretty sure we all were there at that point in our respective journeys, it would be unwise to pay for it yourself. When you get your hours, there will be a company, ie Temsco, Pappilon etc etc, who will bring you in and PAY YOU while you get that turbine time, LL time, NVG and so on!

[ridethisbike]

For the guys thinking about doing these extra courses, money isn't the issue since a majority are using GI Bill bennies. And if they do it right they can take these electives in tandem with their current flight training. Costing more VA money, but better utilizing their benefits in the process since Post 9/11 doesn't base benefits on cost, only on time spent in the college.

 

I would use the same amount of benefits taking a single class in Post 9/11 as I would if I were taking 50 classes.

 

 

Personally, if I were going to take any of those classes, I'd ask which ones I can do at night.

NVG, obviously.

Long line, not so much. Especially for a beginner.

"Advanced" turbine, probably, depending on who they are using as the flight instructor.

Part 135 ops? Beats me. I don't even know what they would be teaching. Other than 135 regs and paperwork (?) I'm at a loss.

 

 

And yes, I put advanced in quotation marks on purpose...

[ridethisbike]

Double post...

[superstallion6113]

Interesting they are adding these new programs at Guidance. I'm looking forward to returning to Guidance to finish my training when I get home. Sounds like some changes are going on there. I will say, one of the reasons I picked Guidance in the first place(besides the high altitude and mountain environment) was it's lack of courses that seemed like a waste for a new student with 220hrs. Seemed less like they were after my money. But, I was also an all R44 student when I started, since I weighed a good bit north of 250lbs. I have just over 60hrs, all R44R2. Another way to make money? Sure. But, if it weren't for that, I wouldn't have completed any training yet, and realized how much I LOVE flying, since I certainly cannot afford R44 time out of pocket. Granted, I do under stand that they are milking the Ch 33 GI Bill money. Absolutely. Regardless, I will be returning there when I'm done here in December after over a year here in this dump of a country. I was more than happy with the quality of 1 on 1 flight instruction I received there. Professional and knowledgeable are two words that come to mind.

 

With that said, I do plan to be in the R22 when I return, well, after I finish instrument, since my fat @#$ has lost 34lbs out here in the last 3 months. Once the summer heat comes, I'll lose more. 80lbs is my goal, and I'll be sub 200 at that point. All part of my goal and plan, since I KNOW nobody will hire me weighing even 230. The plus side is a stocked bank account will help with low pay CFI salary. But I am glad that they have the R44 program. I'd think a good mix of half R44, half R22 time will be great once I graduate at just over 200hrs. None of this 2nd half of my post has anything whatsoever to do with the topic, but, kinda explains my using the R44 thing to my advantage, and my reason for putting flight training on a temp hiatus, and realizing it's not a good idea to do my entire program all R44. Somehow justifying all of it to myself. Other's perception and results may vary.

 

 

To get back on topic, I myself would do the long line, maybe the 135 class depending on the course details and what it would entail. I decided against NVG because one, I have 440ish NVG hrs as a CH-53E enlisted air crewman, and I don't think it would help me, and against advanced turbine, because I'd imagine the longline would be in a turbine, still getting me turbine time that won't really matter come job hunting time. The external lift part seems exciting.

Edited April 7, 2013 by superstallion6113

[Mikemv]

Since we learn through our experiences, in the larger scope of flight training, no training experience should be viewed as a waste. Pilots should create an experience bank and carefully place life/flying/learning experiences into it.

 

I am not endorsing these training programs or use of VA funds for them. I am a combat veteran and feel that Vets having the opportunity for educational benefits is well deserved but I also worry that unnecessary expenditures may eat up funds for the Vets that follow.

 

It has been mentioned by some that they do not know what a 135 tour training program would offer? How could you know? Maybe that is the point of the training. It could possibly teach you about Ops Specs, General Operations Manual, Haz Mats recognition training, Duty & Rest requirements that could be used for personal Risk Management for any flight. How about safety in and around running helos with ground crews loading and unloading? How about minimum altitudes, max angles of bank, requirements for visual contact with the ground, etc, etc. Overall it could be a valid introduction of what to expect in the next job position using SOPs, Std. Industry Practices & Industry Best Practices within a Company structure.

 

Of all the new courses offered, could tours not be the next possible working environment for CFIs moving on along the career path?

 

Personally, I see this being of value to a career pilot. I do state that I am not sure if it is worth the dollar value but that was not the OPs question.

 

I was supposed to interact with JJ about Guidance curriculums post Heli Expo but have not heard back from him.

 

Again, I am not endorsing the use of funds for this training but hopefully stated a perceived value of the training for those that had no idea about a benefit of the course.

 

Best Wishes

 

Mike

[Wally]

NVG operations do indeed occur in the hours of darkness and is "night flight experience". Except that they're not the same as unaided night, which has unique physiological considerations and techniques to deal with them. The training and experience unaided is what's valuable about attempted to benchmark with requiring night minimums. That ability is also the failure safety mode with NVGs.

NVGs are and will continue improving safety of night helo operations. The training and skill acquired is unique and increasingly valuable as NVGs become more widely available. The equipment is nearing ubiquity, but not there yet. Unaided night experience is universal. Get that experience preferentially.

 

Long line training teaches a perception and airmanship that are universally transferable. Stick skills are one thing, learning to use them in anticipation is another. You won't be a hot prospect in the industry based on the limited experience of a school long line course, but you will learn how to be a better 'stick' in all operations.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Wally

[ridethisbike]

I was supposed to interact with JJ about Guidance curriculums post Heli Expo but have not heard back from him.

 

I'm not surprised. Even as a student it can sometimes be difficult to get in touch with him and others on the admin side. I imagine they've all been pretty busy trying to put this whole thing together and get it off the ground.

 

That's an interesting outlook on the 135 ops class. I know they're almost positive it's all going to work out, but it's not set in stone yet. Once it is, I'll be sure to find out the specifics of each course and offer it up for all to see. Assuming, of course, that no one beats me to it.

[pilot#476398]

I also worry that unnecessary expenditures may eat up funds for the Vets that follow.

 

Ditto!

[Goldy]

Ditto!

Back to the training question, you should see by now that "advanced turbine or 135 ops" are the most worthless options. With 1000 hours of piston time and some personality, you can get both flying your first tour job.

 

I'd stick with the VR flying, makes you a better pilot, and easier to put a ship down on a cart...most pilots brains freak out when you try to fly looking down.(mine included)

 

The NVG course would be cool as an intro.....all depends on what kind of flying you hope to do down the road.

 

Goldy

[crashed_05]

The turbine training at Leading Edge and COCC is certainly not required for the degree. It certainly is not necessary to find a job after training either. But, if its there, and I don't have to worry about the costs, why would I not do it? I was able to use my post 9/11 benefits to go from 0 to CFII on both the rotorywing and fixed-wing side. Also, was able to get my MEI, AGI, IGI, and A&P. On top of all this, 40 hrs in the B206. So, the turbine time was not wasting anything for me, and it didn't hold me back from getting two AAS degrees in aviation and soon a BS as well.

So, Vulcan, use the hell out of these benefits while they last and choose the flight lab you'll have the most fun with. Personally, I think the NVG would be of most benefit just for the night time.

Like I said, the turbine time is not necessary, but if Guidance is offering and you have the VA funds, go for it.

[pilot#476398]

The turbine training at Leading Edge and COCC is certainly not required for the degree. It certainly is not necessary to find a job after training either. But, if its there, and I don't have to worry about the costs, why would I not do it? I was able to use my post 9/11 benefits to go from 0 to CFII on both the rotorywing and fixed-wing side. Also, was able to get my MEI, AGI, IGI, and A&P. On top of all this, 40 hrs in the B206. So, the turbine time was not wasting anything for me, and it didn't hold me back from getting two AAS degrees in aviation and soon a BS as well.

So, Vulcan, use the hell out of these benefits while they last and choose the flight lab you'll have the most fun with. Personally, I think the NVG would be of most benefit just for the night time.

Like I said, the turbine time is not necessary, but if Guidance is offering and you have the VA funds, go for it.

 

See now if I worked for the VA, I'd of asked, "Why do we need to pay for 40 hours in a B206, when you could get 80 hours in an R22 for the same price"? "Is this training necessary for employment"? I really hope you guys don't run out of money!

 

By the way, since you have 40 hours in a B206, do they at least let you teach in it?

[Spike]

Guidance Aviation is adding 4 new classes to their program. Long line, NVG ops, part 135 tour ops, and advanced turbine flight. However, Veterans Affairs is considering these electives and saying we can only choose one of the four for the GI Bill to pay for. As a student, which option would be the best to go with for the future?

 

Vref…….

 

If you are in the position to choose between these electives, Long Line (Vref) is the only choice. This is being said because all of the other choices do not provide you with any real skill set or skill set enhancement.

 

NVG’s are an appliance for your night vision and won’t improve your skill. Same holds true with the turbine and while I admit I’ve never heard of a part 135 tour ops course (VA rip off), it won’t improve you as much as Vref would.

 

Vref will teach you how to maneuver the machine while looking straight down. This technique has many applications even without a line attached and is easily practiced to stay somewhat current. And, while you may have no intentions of working in the utility sector, maneuvering the machine while looking down is becoming an art form lost by ignorance. Even some of the experienced pilots I fly with today fly as motionless statues with their heads locked straight ahead. With these fellers, simply landing on a dolly has become a “high risk” event. Why? Because their only reference is hundreds of feet, if not miles, in front of them AND it’s all they know……

 

Choose the Vref course. It WILL make you a better PILOT. Fosho……

 

Edited April 8, 2013 by Spike

[rjl2001]

I would also approach the decision from the standpoint of whether any course could give you an advantage when applying for a CFI job at the school. If they are just starting these courses and you're already close to being finished with training, maybe look to see which course will have the most or fewest qualified instructors to teach that course. I might also try to figure out which courses are likely to have the highest numbers of students enrolling in them.

 

Aside from that perspective, I would pick whichever course most closely aligns with my intended career goals. If I wanted to fly law enforcement, NVG training is probably most applicable. If I was hoping to wind up flying utility or fire fighting one day, long-line is probably most appropriate. Finally, I do agree with those who point out that long line training is probably the choice that would best improve upon your 'stick and rudder' skills or whatever that is for helicopters.

 

To those who find the whole program laughable, maybe try to view it more from the student's perspective. Like others have said, if you're afforded the opportunity to complete one of these courses with no hindrance to you, why wouldn't you take it? The student can hardly affect the bureaucratic system within the VA and the states for approval of such programs. It seems easy to understand the school's reasoning for taking advantage of the opportunity to potentially attract more students and provide additional training for their instructors. Guidance is competing with other schools that have started similar programs already such as Leading Edge, Universal Helicopters, University of North Dakota, and the Palm Beach College program. Besides, since when do we all expect the US Government to make reasonable, logical, and fiscally sound decisions?

[Flying Pig]

Those who have made negative comments about the VA funding some of these programs (myself included) is not an attack on you. So there is no need for us to view it from your perspective. I dont think anyone here is suggesting you pass on it in protest. The comments are directed at some of these schools cashing in on the VA. Some schools getting 30hrs in an MD500 approved and fully funded? C'mon. Schools convincing the VA that Advanced Turbine Operations with 150hrs total time is just ridiculous.

 

BTW... if you want to be an LE pilot, using your VA to put yourself through an academy will go a lot farther than NVG ops.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Flying Pig

[crashed_05]

 

 

BTW... if you want to be an LE pilot, using your VA to put yourself through an academy will go a lot farther than NVG ops.

That would be awesome, but in order for the VA to cover all the flight training, it would have to be in connection with a college degree program. If you know of any, that would be great info for other VA guys.