Commissioned Army Officer to Aviation Warrant Officer

[AngryJoe]

ryanri-

 

PM sent. It wouldn't let me attach the document so it was copy-and-paste from the document itself.

 

-Joe

[METT-TC]

I love how the regs don't change. I just looked up my HRC memo for my date of rank determination to CW2 from 2004 and the reference is still good.

 

If you want the actual regulatory guidance (to throw in someone's bureaucratic face when hitting a wall) that all this is based on for active duty commissioned for two years to CW2, see paragraph 3-3a(2), AR 600-8-29. Just looked it up on armypubs.army.mil and it still applies. Particularly the third sentence of "Active duty service as a commissioned officer before appointment as a warrant officer will also count as active duty service.".

 

If already covered, apologies--didn't see it though. Good luck--swimming the bureaucratic channels is its own specialty. :/

[ryanri]

I love how the regs don't change. I just looked up my HRC memo for my date of rank determination to CW2 from 2004 and the reference is still good.

 

If you want the actual regulatory guidance (to throw in someone's bureaucratic face when hitting a wall) that all this is based on for active duty commissioned for two years to CW2, see paragraph 3-3a(2), AR 600-8-29. Just looked it up on armypubs.army.mil and it still applies. Particularly the third sentence of "Active duty service as a commissioned officer before appointment as a warrant officer will also count as active duty service.".

 

If already covered, apologies--didn't see it though. Good luck--swimming the bureaucratic channels is its own specialty. :/

 

I'm embarrassed to admit for as much as I love referencing regs I did not even think to dive into the S1 regs to find the answer for myself.

 

I feel like this section is oddly worded; however, what I am getting from it is if you have a minimum of 2 years AD as a commissioned officer you are eligible for promotion to CW2 (counts for your time as a WO1). Otherwise its after 18 months as a WO1. Anybody else reading it differently?

[METT-TC]

 

I'm embarrassed to admit for as much as I love referencing regs I did not even think to dive into the S1 regs to find the answer for myself.

 

I feel like this section is oddly worded; however, what I am getting from it is if you have a minimum of 2 years AD as a commissioned officer you are eligible for promotion to CW2 (counts for your time as a WO1). Otherwise its after 18 months as a WO1. Anybody else reading it differently?

That is correct, the full paragraph makes more sense/has more connotation. But they are explicitly saying two years of AD commissioned service equates to DOR for CW2. Full paragraph below (Bold Italics is mine).

 

AR 600-8-29

3–3. Rules for computing promotion eligibility date to CW2

 

a. The earlier of the following dates will be the PED to CW2:

 

(1) The second anniversary of warrant officer service provided the officer has served a minimum of 18 months on the ADL as a WO1. Adjust the PED to ensure the officer meets the 18 months active duty requirement if necessary.

 

(2) The second anniversary of total active duty service in the current or any higher grade provided that the officer has served a minimum of 18 months of active duty service as a WO1. Adjust the PED to ensure the officer meets the 18 month active duty requirement if necessary. Active duty service as a commissioned officer before appointment as a warrant officer will also count as active duty service. See chapter 2 for determining ADOR.

 

Note: If a warrant officer is eligible for promotion on 29 Feb and the month has only 28 days, he or she is eligible on 28 Feb.

 

b. A warrant officer who completes 2 years of warrant officer service before entry on active duty is eligible for promotion on the day of entry. Service must have been in an active reserve status as defined in AR 135–155, paragraph 2–1.

 

c. Prior AFCS is creditable toward promotion of warrant officers only under a(2), above.

[METT-TC]

Reading the above, it does look like it is saying promote to CW2 as long as they have the 2 years active service (commissioned counts) AND 18 months as a WO1. In actuality, the 18 months of WO1 does not apply and HRC will use the 2 years of AD commissioned to make your WO1 / CW2 ranks the same DOR (date of rank).

HRC Promotions Branch is familiar with this (they are the ones that had me do the "Date of Rank Determination Request" memo that quoted the above Reg/paragraph and send it in--I pinned on WO1 and was promptly sent to Korea / The Land of the Not Quite Right and hence more arse pain than others as mine was drawn out for several months). Anyway, hope that assists a little (the precedent is WO1/CW2 same DOR-I'm a product of it...). Have a good 4th.

 

Edit: rabbit holes, rabbit holes everywhere I don't like interpretation, but I let a period get me. See the next para (3-4), specifically Table 3-3 for weird prior service at higher rank vs wocka, wocka normal promo to CW2. Steps 1-3 are you, 4 and 5 are normal. Step 2 only requires the higher service to equate more than 18 months/equitable.

 

And I'm done.

Edited July 4, 2018 by METT-TC

[AngryJoe]

Well fellas, I can start to see it coming full circle. Spent my last day as the Brigade Chief of Operations, outprocessed Fort Wainwright, and am currently in British Columbia making my way toward Fort Rucker. I resign my commission 18 SEP and swear my oath on 19 SEP. Report to Rucker on 28 SEP. Enjoying some much needed leave in between.

 

It's been an adventure thus far, and it hasn't even started yet. Cannot thank everyone enough in this thread for the advice and lessons learned that you have shared. It is an ever changing process until it becomes more common, which it is becoming more common. My sole piece of advice for anyone who is interested in making the conversion is to stop and make something happen for yourself. If you're like me, the Army has engrained the selfless service attribute into me, and I felt selfish oftentimes taking the time and effort away from my duties to get this done. Remember that the Army always has a replacement for you. You will be a better Soldier and a more valuable member to the team if you are doing something you enjoy.

 

If anyone has any questions or needs any advice, I'm pretty fresh. Hit me up if you'd like.

 

-AngryJoe

[12Ato153A]

Thanks to all who have posted on this forum, it has truly demystified the whole process!

 

Anyone out there have experience going from Guard to AD as a WO revert? My packet is almost complete, pending the DD368 (which I should have by the end of the month). My CoC has been super supportive, which has definitely made things easy.

 

I am primarily interested in how and when the resignation as a CO and appointment as a WO would take place, if selected. Best I can tell is that folks aren't getting school dates until 6-8 months after selection, just trying to paint a better picture for everyone as this process moves forward.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Silver236]

Gentlemen,

 

I am glad to see many COs reverting to become an aviator as a WO. I am pretty much on the same boat, except I am an AD Marine Corps O-3 (non-aviator). I already passed the SIFT and completed flight physical with the intent of applying for the Guard. However, after some deliberation, I think it will be beneficial for me to go AD considering retirement, transfer of GI Bill (will hit 6 years next year, would like to pass them down my kids), and financial stability.

 

The Guard recruiter in my state sounded very assuring that I will be accepted even with my low SIFT score (48) based off of my leadership experience in the Corps and my flight hours (private pilot license fixed wing, 110hrs). The most neat thing about the Guard is that it does not require for me to obtain a conditional release from the HQMC. However, being a guardsman will require me to secure a full-time job in order to provide and maintain the O-3 AD lifestyle for my family. I was looking into GS-12 positions in my home city but the federal retirement system appears to be less appealing compare to the military retirement system; lower annuity and higher minimum retirement age. Yes, I have the option of buying back my AD years, or simply convert my AD time to Guard and start my federal time from zero so that way I can have two retirements but neither option beats the benefit of retiring at 20 years from AD and starting a whole new career at age of 43!

 

It is my fault for rushing to take the SIFT, trying to get everything done before my deployment but I am yet to hear a non-Army CO being selected for the Jan board. A fellow Navy CO who applied for the past Jan board was not selected and he definitely had a higher SIFT score than I did but I cannot speak for the rest of his package. I am planning to submit my Guard package for the April 2019 board (FEDREC), then submit a package for the Jan 2020 board once I am complete with my current service obligation in Dec 2019. Please let me know if you know of any non-Army CO selectees from the past Jan boards. Any comments/suggestions are much appreciated.

 

Ed

[Steve L]

Hello everyone,

 

I recently submitted my packet for the JAN Board. Thank you all for providing so much information on this forum to assist applicants throughout the process.

 

I had to submit my packet 6 weeks before the deadline of 30 NOV because of a Waiver request for having over 48 months of commissioned service. I will receive one more OER before the deadline to send in packet updates. Do you recommend that I submit that OER as an update? The most recent OER I currently have in my packet is a MQ. Would your recommendation vary on submitting the additional OER if it is HQ vs MQ?

[AngryJoe]

Totally your choice. I received an OER in December right before my board and didnt send it in. Still got selected.

[13A add a 5 please]

Fellow officers! (Or former LTs/CPTs)

 

13A CPT here, just got selected on the January board. Can't believe it, apparently there were 40-50 officers that sat on the board for only 10 slots. Somehow I snuck through!

 

I was talking to another CPT that was selected, and she said that one of her friends did this same route in the past, and only waited a couple weeks after getting selected before getting orders. For those that were selected from the officer side, do you remember how long it took to get orders? Just trying to manage my expectations and obviously past performance doesn't indicate future results, but waiting only a few weeks vs. the 90 days the email said it could take would be a lot nicer. And it could make sense that it would be easier to get us dates since we don't have to go to WOCS like the enlisted or basic like the civilians.

 

Thanks in advance!

[AngryJoe]

I don't think you will get actual orders until your UQR gets approved. You will receive an ATRRS reservation for the course within a couple weeks, which will somewhat drive your orders-making process with your unit and HRC.

 

To answer your question about how long it took to get orders- Selected in February, Submitted my UQR in mid-May, received PCS and separation orders on 02 July, ETS orders on 26 July. Report date of 08 October.

[13A add a 5 please]

I don't think you will get actual orders until your UQR gets approved. You will receive an ATRRS reservation for the course within a couple weeks, which will somewhat drive your orders-making process with your unit and HRC.

 

To answer your question about how long it took to get orders- Selected in February, Submitted my UQR in mid-May, received PCS and separation orders on 02 July, ETS orders on 26 July. Report date of 08 October.

OK! The ATRRS course date is probably what I meant. Makes sense. And damn, that's a bit longer of a timeline than I was hoping, but at least the waiting game of going is better than the waiting game of "will I go?"

[351LOrBust]

First I would like to thank everyone for all of the information!  While I am not looking to become a 153A, the process is similar for 351L.  I ran into a hiccup that was mentioned in previous posts with Branches not wanting to release officers.  My friend applied a year ago and was not required to submit a 4187 with her letter of release and conditional resignation MFR.  My branch (MI) is requiring a 4187 but does not have a template.  I saw a couple of posts referencing a 4187.  Does anyone have a template that they  would be kind enough to send to me?  I can modify MOS specific information to match with the MOS I am applying for but I need a starting point.  I currently have a Voluntary REFRAD 4187 but I know that I will have to submit the REFRAD packet once I am accepted by the WOSB (fingers crossed).  Any assistance would be greatly appreciated as Branch has given me a one week suspense to get the three documents submitted back to them!

- Alone and Unafraid Captain

[Termin8]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 7:19 PM, 351LOrBust said:

First I would like to thank everyone for all of the information!  While I am not looking to become a 153A, the process is similar for 351L.  I ran into a hiccup that was mentioned in previous posts with Branches not wanting to release officers.  My friend applied a year ago and was not required to submit a 4187 with her letter of release and conditional resignation MFR.  My branch (MI) is requiring a 4187 but does not have a template.  I saw a couple of posts referencing a 4187.  Does anyone have a template that they  would be kind enough to send to me?  I can modify MOS specific information to match with the MOS I am applying for but I need a starting point.  I currently have a Voluntary REFRAD 4187 but I know that I will have to submit the REFRAD packet once I am accepted by the WOSB (fingers crossed).  Any assistance would be greatly appreciated as Branch has given me a one week suspense to get the three documents submitted back to them!

- Alone and Unafraid Captain

In case someone else has the same question in the future, attached is a sample DA4187 for conditional release.  I didn't need this from my branch (Field Artillery) but I have seen this question several times from other branches.

[nil5038]

Whats up guys. Prior Navy regular Officer here.

Anyone know regs stipulating my wocs attendance? or lack of attendance. Been talking to Av branch proponent and theyre not sure if Navy OCS would permit me to skip it.

sorry for sounding lazy. Ive been searching through army pubs for the past two hours or so trying to find it. Willing to take the tounge lashing here for not researching more in order to get a quick answer.

 

 

[351LOrBust]

@nil5038 - So I was told because I am a post career course captain, I do not go to WOCS but I will go to WOBC if selected. Will find out in July!

Not sure if that helps but I would say it’s probably based on your rank and level of education completed. Hit up a Warrant Officer Recruiter and they will probably be able to point you in the right direction. 

[ryanri]

@nil5038 @351LOrBust

So my constructive credit for WOCS was based on my completion of BOLC not OCS. I do not know why this was what was done but that is what the paperwork says.

You are no longer able to bypass WOBC and must attend both parts Aand B

ALLEGEDLY if you have your Captain Career Course complete it will give you constructive credit for WOAC down the road but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket. 

 

The constructive credit paperwork was the longest part of the entire process because allegedly the packet died for awhile on someones desk. It took about 4 months from submission to approval and receipt.

[kona4breakfast]

On 5/14/2020 at 11:37 PM, ryanri said:

@nil5038 @351LOrBust

So my constructive credit for WOCS was based on my completion of BOLC not OCS. I do not know why this was what was done but that is what the paperwork says.

You are no longer able to bypass WOBC and must attend both parts Aand B

ALLEGEDLY if you have your Captain Career Course complete it will give you constructive credit for WOAC down the road but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket. 

 

The constructive credit paperwork was the longest part of the entire process because allegedly the packet died for awhile on someones desk. It took about 4 months from submission to approval and receipt.

See AR 350-1 Appendix I, the tables there cover constructive and equivalent credit for officers. I doubt you'll get WOAC credit from the AVCCC. 

NGR 600-101 7-9e (National Guard reg) specifically authorizes equivalent credit for prior-Captains who are appointed as warrant officers and who graduated from AVCCC within 7 years of being appointed a warrant (by the way, to get promoted to W3 as a guard guy you need that WOAC credit, unlike our federal brethren, thanks to that same reg). You have to submit that equivalent credit packet through Rucker to DA-3/5/7. The schoolhouse made me do a constructive credit packet instead, which resulted in me putting together a 160 page packet with absolutely zero help from them. We had to have a Major go there personally to get a copy of the AVCCC POI from them. Then the 3/5/7 started nitpicking my packet. I found this infuriating, since they made me validate every learning objective from the 4  month resident course when I was just trying to get out of the 15 day guard course. If the 2 week reserve WOAC meets the validation requirements of the resident WOAC, how the hell doesn't the resident AVCCC?  In the end, about 18 months after I submitted my first 4187, he just refused to forward it to the approval authority.

I did eventually get my promotion, sort of. I'm a Major in the Air Guard now. I should really write an email and thank those guys.

[mrtitch]

On 3/24/2018 at 6:15 AM, 15crevert said:

New to this forum. Aviation O4, in the process of reverting. Does anyone have any knowledge (actual refs) that discuss if I would get high 3 MAJ retirement and the rank I would retire at. Very hot or miss on this subject, and most people who do this are in the CPT, LT ranks.

I am an aviation O4 reaching 12 years TIS in May. I am a UH60 driver with 750 hrs and former PC/AMC.  I am seriously contemplating reverting for less stress, more flying, etc. I am trying to gather all of the facts first. How has your process gone? I heard you get shunned from the AV community once you express interest in reverting, which screws you on those final OERs. Care to share?
Thanks in advance. 

[kona4breakfast]

On 1/19/2021 at 7:19 PM, mrtitch said:

 I heard you get shunned from the AV community once you express interest in reverting, which screws you on those final OERs. Care to share?
 

When I joined the guard the stipulation was that I had to revert. They generally preferred that I didn't take a field grade slot from their homegrown officers. By the time my FEDREC went thru, almost a year later, they wanted me to stay on as an O4, but that wasn't what I wanted. The BN SP is a reverted O3, and one of the facility MTPs is also a reverted O3. My old PL was a warrant that managed to get himself a direct commission to O1. Life's more fluid in the Guard. 

[mike0331]

On 1/21/2021 at 4:25 PM, kona4breakfast said:

When I joined the guard the stipulation was that I had to revert. They generally preferred that I didn't take a field grade slot from their homegrown officers. By the time my FEDREC went thru, almost a year later, they wanted me to stay on as an O4, but that wasn't what I wanted. The BN SP is a reverted O3, and one of the facility MTPs is also a reverted O3. My old PL was a warrant that managed to get himself a direct commission to O1. Life's more fluid in the Guard. 

Is direct commissioning still a thing? 

[kona4breakfast]

3 minutes ago, mike0331 said:

Is direct commissioning still a thing? 

He worked some sort of constructive credit arrangement IIRC. He'd been a combat engineer NCO prior to becoming a warrant, so between WOBC, flight school and his deployed leadership time he managed it somehow. I was surprised too.

[mike0331]

10 minutes ago, kona4breakfast said:

He worked some sort of constructive credit arrangement IIRC. He'd been a combat engineer NCO prior to becoming a warrant, so between WOBC, flight school and his deployed leadership time he managed it somehow. I was surprised too.

Gotta love the Guard 

[What_is_the_OPN_Impact_CPT]

Hey everyone,

 

not sure how active anyone here is anymore, but I’m in a potentially unique situation with interest going from CO to 153A WO.

 

I am currently a non-15A, O3 that will most likely PCS to Fort Rucker to become a Small Group Leader (SGL) for the AVC3 course next summer.

After finding out about this opportunity, I realized I may have a solid chance to potentially revert over to WO as I near towards the end of my CPT time prior to my ILE board.

Could anyone here give me a refresher on the application process, documents, etc.? Would I need to take the SIFT (I’m assuming this is an obvious yes)? Do I need to submit a AFCS Waiver for being nearly 8-9 years of active service time when I submit my packet to the board?

Ive always dreamt about flying, but I had poor eyesight (which is now corrected with PRK as of 2018) and was a relatively average cadet in ROTC. 
 

Background (as of NOV22):

- ROTC Commission, YG16, 7 years TIS

- Non-15A, O-3 Active Duty

- MBA from a top-15 BS

- 24-months in command

- PCS to Fort Rucker to become an instructor

- Expert Soldier Badge / Air Assault-qualified

- Instructor Course, Air Cavalry Leaders course and SERE-C according to my O-4 sponsor

- 300 APFT (OCT20), 575 ACFT (NOV22)

- Haven’t taken SIFT yet

- Will attempt to receive LORs from the AvCoE O4 CO CDR, BN CDR, and Commandant of the school.

Again, would anyone be able to help assist me with going through this process?