Break into Ag or Instruct?

[Spike]

 

Ag flying is as "choose your own adventure" as you can get IMO. I'm sure not all operators are the same, but everywhere I have worked you are left to your own devices 99% of the time.

 

 

I didn’t say, “choose your own adventure”. Its choose what, when and how you conduct your day. I don’t believe too many Ag operators let you take “their” machines and head out to do pinnacles or fly through the local class B whenever you choose to do so. More importantly, I don’t see the boss allowing you to practice multiple EP’s day-in and day-out….. At least the one I briefly worked for didn’t…..

Edited April 27, 2016 by Spike

[Rotorhead84]

 

 

I didn’t say, “choose your own adventure”. Its choose what, when and how you conduct your day. I don’t believe too many Ag operators let you take “their” machines and head out to do pinnacles or fly through the local class B whenever you choose to do so. More importantly, I don’t see the boss allowing you to practice multiple EP’s day-in and day-out….. At least the one I briefly worked for didn’t…..

 

Every place I have worked I have had free reign to do whatever I pleased as long as the work was getting done.

 

Typically I'd show up in the spring and get issued a helicopter, crew, and a giant pile of work and they kicked me out the door and I didn't return to base until late fall. By then I had drug my crew through 5-6 states and only had contact with the boss when work items changed or the helicopter/equipment was broken. Otherwise nobody was watching me, nobody questioned anything I was doing or how I was doing it and I was allowed to do whatever I wanted to do.

 

If you think flying through some class B airspace and doing EPs and practicing pinnacles is what being a helicopter pilot is all about, then I predict you're going to be on the low end of the payscale and will miss out on a lot of awesome opportunities. All you're doing is practicing to be a real helicopter pilot one day. My advice would be to actually go out and be an actual helicopter pilot. Doing actual pinnacle landings on top of trucks. Doing real confined area landings into holes a few feet larger than your helicopter. Learning power management like you would not believe. Learning that 80% of the bullshit EPs you learned in flight school don't actually apply to a real world working helicopter pilot.

 

If buzzing around the pattern in a recip makes you happy and feel like a pilot, by all means, continue to do so. More real work for the rest of us.

[Spike]

More real work for the rest of us.

 

Wow... Real work eh? You sound like you're new to this business.....

 

You should re-read my first post. Specifically, an Ag job will provide a greenhorn with Ag pilot skill-sets like you mention, which for me, is like flying though class B… No big deal…. However, I can say that simply because I’ve done it now for a number of years… But, this isn’t about me. It’s about what kind of suggestion to provide the OP so he can make an informed decision. My suggestion was based on my experience and, that has been, gainfully employed over the last 24 years, by starting out as a CFI. And, I couldn’t support my family on the eight-dollars an hour the Ag company was paying me to drive their trucks. Plus, I can attest, the only reason why the machine was 100% intact after the engine quit, was because of the hundreds of EP’s I taught to student/applicants…. It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when… But, you apparently believe otherwise ....

 

My opinion is my own just as yours is. However, just based on the industry statistics, the OP deciding to go with driving a truck in hopes of landing an Ag pilot spot actually reduced his chances of advancing in the helicopter business anytime soon. That’s not my opinion. Unfortunately, that’s a fact….. The ole, one-in-the-hand/two-in-the-bush philosophy comes to mind which is reminiscent of today’s youth… He’s choosing to take a chance, and good for him, but he needs to understand, it’s a chance and nothing more…… I’m no gambling man and with this business, I’ll always suggest to lean toward the sure-thing…

 

Much....

Edited April 27, 2016 by Spike

[Mikemv]

It amazes me that pilots come to the internet for advice, read the advice and then make a decision based on a gut feeling.

 

I wonder will flying and other life decisions be made by gut feelings?

[helonorth]

Trust your gut feeling or go with advice from the internet? Hmmm....

[GSPilot]

It amazes me that pilots come to the internet for advice, read the advice and then make a decision based on a gut feeling.

 

I wonder will flying and other life decisions be made by gut feelings?

. It's a little more than a gut feeling. I appreciate the advice. I still plan on instructing in the winter to increase my experience. I know what I'm getting myself into.

[Mikemv]

. It's a little more than a gut feeling. I appreciate the advice. I still plan on instructing in the winter to increase my experience. I know what I'm getting myself into.

Best wishes in your moving forward as a career helicopter pilot.

[DizzyD]

I can say for a fact that industrial agriculture is very hot to deploy UAS in the agro-application arena. The only savior here is the slow speed at which government bureaucracy is able to accommodate this new technology, eventually pilot jobs will be lost and unfortunately its coming fast.

[helonorth]

The UAV's don't fly themselves. No risk and less exposure to the chemicals to the operator. You also have to get the aircraft from field to field. How will that work? Can you legally fly them yet not see them? I don't see how it can be done safely and efficiently at this point.

Edited April 28, 2016 by helonorth

[rotormandan]

I can say for a fact that industrial agriculture is very hot to deploy UAS in the agro-application arena. The only savior here is the slow speed at which government bureaucracy is able to accommodate this new technology, eventually pilot jobs will be lost and unfortunately its coming fast.

 

That could be said about any part of the aviation industry. It's all a long ways off and not any reason to base a career decision on today.

[280fxColorado]

@helonorth - UAVs most certainly can fly themselves, with extreme precision. Flight paths can be programmed manually or automatically and repeated exactly. Centimeter level precision and absolute accuracy (X,Y,Z) can be achieved with an array of sensors (altimeter, stereoscopic optical height sensor, accelerometers and gyros) and redundant satellite positioning sytems (GPS, GLONASS, RTK GPS, etc) and local positioning systems (LPS). Obstacle avoidance is rather primitive right now, but lightweight and effective solutions are on the horizon. See DJI's new $1400 consumer offering, the Phantom 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJPSSqMQajA

 

How to get the aircraft from field to field? In the back of a pickup truck. Or perhaps the lower acquisition costs and ease of automated operation allows the UAVs to be purchased or leased and remain at the farm.

 

Regulations are murky and unknown at this point but Beyond Visual Line of Sight operations (BVLOS) will eventually be permitted with adequate operator and aircraft certification, proper avionics, etc. Some BVLOS ops are already allowed with Certificates of Authorization.

 

Safely and efficiently? - Let's look at Yamaha's RMAX helicopter with over two decades of operational history.

 

 

Safety (From Yamaha's FAA 333 Exemption petition): "The petitioner further cites the well-established performance and safety record of the RMAX with its 20 year history of use in Japan and its recent approved use in Australia and South Korea. The RMAX has also been flown in the United States as a public aircraft for research and development purposes. The petitioner states that the RMAX has logged over 2 million flight hours, treating more than 2.4 million acres of farmland each year in Japan alone. During the this two decade period, there have been no injuries due to problems with the aircraft in Japan, Australia or South Korea and in the limited instances where a problem with the aircraft has occurred, the RMAX has either been safely landed and shut down by the pilot or fallen to the ground without personal injury. There have been no collisions with other aircraft."

 

Efficiency-

"The total number of registered Yamaha unmanned helicopters for agricultural use was about 120 units in 1991, and the total area of cultivated land they were spraying was about 8,000 hectares. By the year 2000, those figures had reached 1,100 registered units covering more than 260,000 hectares. As of 2013, a total of 2,458 Yamaha industrial-use unmanned helicopters are registered, primarily of the RMAX series models, the successor to the R-50. In terms of rice paddy spraying alone they cover a total area of over one million hectares, or around 35% of the country’s rice paddy area under cultivation. By simple calculation, this means that one in every three bowls of rice served in Japanese homes has been grown with the agrichemical pest control spread by a Yamaha unmanned helicopter."

 

http://global.yamaha-motor.com/ymgn/news_letter/2013/pdf/2013_11_monthly-newsletter.pdf

 

Utility aviation is changing rapidly - hang on and don't blink!

Edited April 29, 2016 by 280fxColorado

[Wally]

There's of a lot of 'ifs, ands, and maybes' in your description of the ag operation. There would be many uncertainties if you decided to instruct. The difference will be where you are in two years: CFI with a thousand hours; or hoping to take a pilot seat with the ag operator. That's more than "a bird in the hand versus 2 in the bush" situation. If nothing will make you happy except being an ag pilot...

I took an instructor's seat at a flight school who left to make more money at an ag operation. And he did very very well- the first month. Too late in the season? I don't know, but he was scramblin the next 3 months to keep the kids in shoes.That school also employed 2 ex-ag pilots full time, really good pilots but the price for those stick skills were not cheap.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Wally

[Pohi]

Meh, do what you want. If ag makes you happy, roll with it. I quit a great career and a much higher salary than I make now to be a pilot because I wanted to do something I loved for a living. If you want to do ag, rock it and never look back. If things go to crap and uav's take over the business, change gears and do something else.

 

Your motivation and drive is what will be the difference between success and failure in the long run.

[adam32]

The RMAX certainly is intriguing. I wouldn't mind trying one out. Be fun to use cherry drying and on frost patrol if they have enough rotor wash.

[Rotorhead84]

@helonorth - UAVs most certainly can fly themselves, with extreme precision. Flight paths can be programmed manually or automatically and repeated exactly. Centimeter level precision and absolute accuracy (X,Y,Z) can be achieved with an array of sensors (altimeter, stereoscopic optical height sensor, accelerometers and gyros) and redundant satellite positioning sytems (GPS, GLONASS, RTK GPS, etc) and local positioning systems (LPS). Obstacle avoidance is rather primitive right now, but lightweight and effective solutions are on the horizon. See DJI's new $1400 consumer offering, the Phantom 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJPSSqMQajA

 

How to get the aircraft from field to field? In the back of a pickup truck. Or perhaps the lower acquisition costs and ease of automated operation allows the UAVs to be purchased or leased and remain at the farm.

 

Regulations are murky and unknown at this point but Beyond Visual Line of Sight operations (BVLOS) will eventually be permitted with adequate operator and aircraft certification, proper avionics, etc. Some BVLOS ops are already allowed with Certificates of Authorization.

 

Safely and efficiently? - Let's look at Yamaha's RMAX helicopter with over two decades of operational history.

 

 

Safety (From Yamaha's FAA 333 Exemption petition): "The petitioner further cites the well-established performance and safety record of the RMAX with its 20 year history of use in Japan and its recent approved use in Australia and South Korea. The RMAX has also been flown in the United States as a public aircraft for research and development purposes. The petitioner states that the RMAX has logged over 2 million flight hours, treating more than 2.4 million acres of farmland each year in Japan alone. During the this two decade period, there have been no injuries due to problems with the aircraft in Japan, Australia or South Korea and in the limited instances where a problem with the aircraft has occurred, the RMAX has either been safely landed and shut down by the pilot or fallen to the ground without personal injury. There have been no collisions with other aircraft."

 

Efficiency-

"The total number of registered Yamaha unmanned helicopters for agricultural use was about 120 units in 1991, and the total area of cultivated land they were spraying was about 8,000 hectares. By the year 2000, those figures had reached 1,100 registered units covering more than 260,000 hectares. As of 2013, a total of 2,458 Yamaha industrial-use unmanned helicopters are registered, primarily of the RMAX series models, the successor to the R-50. In terms of rice paddy spraying alone they cover a total area of over one million hectares, or around 35% of the country’s rice paddy area under cultivation. By simple calculation, this means that one in every three bowls of rice served in Japanese homes has been grown with the agrichemical pest control spread by a Yamaha unmanned helicopter."

 

http://global.yamaha-motor.com/ymgn/news_letter/2013/pdf/2013_11_monthly-newsletter.pdf

 

Utility aviation is changing rapidly - hang on and don't blink!

 

 

People who think the jap's toy helicopter or some other small uav is going to take over ag do not understand ag at all. UAV's are going to have to roughly the same size and capable of carrying the same amount of product as traditional manned ag aircraft. That is a very long way off. I'd be pretty surprised if it happens during my flying career. I do think it'll happen in my lifetime however (I'm 31). I am probablyin the last or second to last generation of ag pilots.

 

Drones/UAV's will eventually take over quite a bit of the helicopter market. Ag will not be the first sector to go. It will be one of the last utility sectors to go unmanned. Things like ENG and powerline/pipeline patrol will be the first to die.

 

I'll be pretty surprised if anyone is still flying pipeline or powerline with manned aircraft 10 years from now.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Rotorhead84

[280fxColorado]

UAV's are going to have to roughly the same size and capable of carrying the same amount of product as traditional manned ag aircraft. That is a very long way off.

 

Will they? Is it?

 

What if you could purchase and operate many spraying UAS for less than a traditional spray rig? What if those drones could network as a swarm and not just fly singularly? What if you could efficiently map your crops with hyperspectral/multisensor imagery to accurately determine crop health and identify problem areas? What if you could then use targeted micro-application instead of broad stroke prophylactic application? Would that reduce application costs?

 

What if someone builds a drone sized somewhere in between the "jap's toy" and a Hiller/OH-58/BH47/206 or what have you? What if those drones could fly and load fuel/chem autonomously, tirelessly, efficiently -- even through the night when winds are most favorable?

 

You're absolutely right that ag wont be the first sector to be taken over. And the RMAX is simply a primitive example of proven technology that has been in use for over 20 years, a mere shadow of what's on the horizon.

[Nearly Retired]

In the Ag industry, as you scale the Yamaha drone up you're going to have to deal with all of the usual bugaboos that come with full-size helicopters: SWP/VRS and of course old faithful LTE. The human brain can, with some success, learn to detect the onset of these sudden and sometimes transient conditions *before* they become a problem. Will the onboard electronics be able to do so? Or will the chaotic nature of...well...nature be too much for them to handle 100% of the time? I'm curious to find out. The future is coming whether we like it or not. It'll be interesting to see how quickly it gets here.

[DizzyD]

The greatest obstacle to UAS integration into the NAS is safety and separation from other traffic. Introduction of wide ranging commercial UAS ops requires that these systems be integrated with some form of active operator surveillance or autonomous traffic avoidance, or segregated procedurally. The fact that thousands of square miles of farmland are obstacle free and able to be procedurally segregated from other air traffic is why this is low hanging fruit to the UAS industry and will be a reality before Amazon drops a package on your porch. The Midwest industrial farming concerns have big dollar lobbyists leaning on the government to expedite the arrival of this technology. This is less than 5 years away in my opinion, review the recently passed Senate FAA Re-authorization Bill to see the resources being aimed at this.

[DizzyD]

Check this out

https://www.ted.com/talks/vijay_kumar_robots_that_fly_and_cooperate?language=en

 

And this was 4 years ago, a eon in UAS evolution...

[iChris]

UAVs/Drones aren’t going to totally replace the manned helicopter as we know it; however, this technology is opening up new avenues and opportunities, especially in the area of aerial cinematography and photography, that were once unavailable to many due to the cost and restrictions of the average helicopter.

 

This technology can also open up new avenues and opportunities for the average helicopter company by increasing their capabilities in providing new and revolutionary products and services to their customers. It doesn’t take away from your bottom line, it can add to that line and enhance your profit margin.

 

As a small example, I’ve profited on a win-win basis, helping a number of cinematography and photography firms obtain their 333 exemptions from the FAA, enabling them to operate their UAVs/Drones commercially. Some companies are not accustomed to dealing will FAA rules and regulations as we are.

 

Moreover, don’t worry, UAVs/Drones won’t take the whole pie; however, they will take their share of that pie:

 

Aerial Photography/Videography

Power Line Surveillance

Agricultural/Crop Surveillance

Aerial Roof Inspections

Real Estate Marketing

Construction Site Inspections

 

Helicopter Operators See Drones as a Business Opportunity

 

70 Drone Companies to Watch in 2016

 

POLICE UAV DRONES

 

Remotely Piloted K-MAX Helicopter Firefighting Demonstration

 

Drone Ignites Prescribed Fire

 

Hollywood welcomes drones to the set

 

Aerials drone shots behind the scene

 

Drones: A military revolution & The pilots of the future

 

Shooting down drones from your backyard

 

There's a battle over the skies of Arizona. Sports shooters are hunting down drones

 

2012 FAA List of All Public Entities that Have Applied for a Drone Certificate of Authorization

 

Drone helicopter spies topless woman

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by iChris

[iChris]

 

 

 

A few examples of authorizations granted to helicopter companies (Links):

 

Note the lengthy Conditions and Limitations

 

Gulf Coast Helicopters Inc.

 

Chesapeake Bay Helicopters Inc.

 

PJ Helicopters Inc.

 

Leptron Industrial Robotic Helicopters s

 

McMahon Helicopter Services, Inc.

 

Mid-Michigan Helicopters

 

Helicam Helicopters

 

Helicopters West LLC

Edited April 30, 2016 by iChris

[r22butters]

 

Now see here's the biggest obstacle for drones. Most people see them as a pesky nuisance, whereas when I flew over a pair of sun bathing boobs in the 22 she just smiled and waved.

[DizzyD]

one last data point from the FAA Senate Re-auth Bill which was passed...btw Ichris' commentary is spot on as well. Keep tabs on this industry it will affect you at some point probably sooner than it might appear. Check out Sec 2132 for niche market

 

 

Subtitle A—Unmanned Aircraft Systems Reform Sec. 2001. Definitions.

PART I—PRIVACY AND TRANSPARENCY Sec. 2101. Unmanned aircraft systems privacy policy.

March 9, 2016 (3:32 p.m.)

 

Sec. 2102. Sense of Congress.
Sec. 2103. Federal Trade Commission authority.
Sec. 2104. National Telecommunications and Information Administration

multi-stakeholder process. Sec. 2105. Identification standards.

Sec. 2106. Commercial and governmental operators.
Sec. 2107. Analysis of current remedies under Federal, State, local jurisdic-

tions.
PART II—UNMANNED AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS

Sec. 2121. Definitions.
Sec. 2122. Utilization of unmanned aircraft system test sites.
Sec. 2123. Additional research, development, and testing.
Sec. 2124. Safety standards.
Sec. 2125. Unmanned aircraft systems in the Arctic.
Sec. 2126. Special authority for certain unmanned aircraft systems.
Sec. 2127. Additional rulemaking authority.
Sec. 2128. Governmental unmanned aircraft systems.
Sec. 2129. Special rules for model aircraft.
Sec. 2130. Unmanned aircraft systems aeronautical knowledge and safety. Sec. 2131. Safety statements.
Sec. 2132. Treatment of unmanned aircraft operating underground.
Sec. 2133. Enforcement.
Sec. 2134. Aviation emergency safety public services disruption.
Sec. 2135. Pilot project for airport safety and airspace hazard mitigation. Sec. 2136. Contribution to financing of regulatory functions.
Sec. 2137. Sense of Congress regarding small UAS rulemaking.
Sec. 2138. Unmanned aircraft system traffic management.
Sec. 2139. Emergency exemption process.
Sec. 2140. Public uas operations by tribal governments.

PART III—TRANSITION AND SAVINGS PROVISIONS

Sec. 2141. Senior advisor for unmanned aircraft systems integration. Sec. 2142. Effect on other laws.
Sec. 2143. Transition language.

[Rotorhead84]

 

Will they? Is it?

 

What if you could purchase and operate many spraying UAS for less than a traditional spray rig? What if those drones could network as a swarm and not just fly singularly? What if you could efficiently map your crops with hyperspectral/multisensor imagery to accurately determine crop health and identify problem areas? What if you could then use targeted micro-application instead of broad stroke prophylactic application? Would that reduce application costs?

 

What if someone builds a drone sized somewhere in between the "jap's toy" and a Hiller/OH-58/BH47/206 or what have you? What if those drones could fly and load fuel/chem autonomously, tirelessly, efficiently -- even through the night when winds are most favorable?

 

You're absolutely right that ag wont be the first sector to be taken over. And the RMAX is simply a primitive example of proven technology that has been in use for over 20 years, a mere shadow of what's on the horizon.

Its very clear that you do no understand how ag works. Which I'm not trying to jump down your throat about it. Just about everyone who has never worked in ag and most of the short timers that fly a little bit of ag and then move on don't understand how ag works either. Everything you're talking about is a long way off.

 

Nothing you suggested is even remotely new tech besides UAS armed with a spray tank

• You already can purchase several ag drones.
• You already can map crops in the way you described. And this is where drones in ag will be most prominant. Agronomists have more to worry about from drones in ag than aerial applicators.
• You already can do targeted micro application. Both on the ground and from the air.
• Aircraft size is actually extremely important when it comes to aerial application. And currently there exists large scale drones capable of the payloads and air displacement necessary for effective aerial applications. They cost about 20 million bucks a piece.

 

 

There is no chance in hell we're going to have swarms of poison carrying "drones" buzzing around on a scale that is equal to the entirety of NAS traffic daily to include all airline traffic. Because that is the scale we are talking about. You're defintely going to see UAS applying pesticides around small scale operations. Vineyards come to mind. Places where hiring out a manned aerial applicator currently isn't very practical. Its a wet dream that there will be swarms of drones flying over the cornfields of America.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Rotorhead84

[Jaybee]

Crazy or badass ?